IF thats what I was saying Eryk I would have said that.
We are looking for discussions more then debates. Come with an open mind, maybe we all can grow.
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So were you assisting me in pointing out how ludicrous this argument is or did you have another motive?
Because @tck62 brought up janitors and landscapers and I just can’t wrap my head around why large powerful and extremely profitable corporations would give a crap. If anything this is helping smaller companies who can operate in the legal gray area.
As @tck62 says. Follow the money. If you take away cheap, and maybe not entirely legal, labor from small companies, you make it easier for big powerful companies to gobble them up. Maybe that’s why Republicans are pushing for reform. They DONT want cheap labor. I know I’m rationalizing but my perhaps absurd argument shows that anyone can rationalize an argument if they think hard enough. @tck62 does not hold a monopoly here.
Perhaps the actual explanation is the real one. Politicians pandering for votes. In the grand scheme of things nobody actually gives a shyte.
Eryk I’m on my phone so I’m not going to write a book. My point was regarding your claim of a strong economy. I’m simply saying the current economy is only working for the select few. You claim business is hurting for workers, I’m saying the workers are hurting for jobs that pay enough simply to stop living in their cars.Eryk wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:47 pmAny company??? Really??? Even the big powerful companies that don’t directly hire illegals? F man, if they’re already paying this to their gardeners and janitors, why should they care about what the smaller weaker companies that rely on this labor are doing??? Do you think VPs and CFOs have meetings about how they can pay their janitors and land scalpers less money??? If anything this argument works against you. If the smaller less profitable corporations had to follow the same rules regarding wages as the bigger more powerful corporations, that would only benefit the bigger corporations who have the money to pay lobbyists.
#2 & #3: You did nothing to directly address anything I said. All you did was regurgitate the same anti-big business anti-corporation anti-rich propaganda that you always push on us.
Which “claim”?tck62 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:09 pmEryk I’m on my phone so I’m not going to write a book. My point was regarding your claim of a strong economy. I’m simply saying the current economy is only working for the select few. You claim business is hurting for workers, I’m saying the workers are hurting for jobs that pay enough simply to stop living in their cars.
Maybe our economy isn’t perfect but it’s certainly better than central and South America. Which is why we have immigrants.
My other “claim” that we have a shortage of workers really wasn’t a claim at all. I was playing “devils advocate” and I was trying to rationalize a situation where we would encourage illegal immigration. I said so in my post. If you think that “claim” is invalid then that’s one less reason the rich would want illegal immigration. Which helps my argument. I made that “claim” to help you.
Growth. It’s all about growth, keeping an upward pressure on demand especially in housing while keeping a downward pressure on wages.
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First here's a link employment breakdown of unauthorized and lawful immigrants. You'll notice that for both groups the highest totals for occupational groups by immigrant share of workers are in "fishing, farming, forestry" by relatively significant margin. Industries by immigrant share of workers, "private households" and "agriculture" are again the highest categories of unauthorized immigrants. Of course there's other categorical sectors you mention that are represented like construction, food service, building/ground maintenance, and food manufacturing.tck62 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:21 pmI'm sorry but that is just a flat out bigoted stereotype, the vast majority of foreign workers in the country illegally are not working in agriculture, they're our cooks, construction, roofers, landscappers, meat packers etc. all the blue collar jobs that used to pay a living wage before the Reagan years screwed up everything.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... -industry/
Each of those categories are all noble enough, and a good day's work is good day's work no matter what you're doing. But it's certainly not bigoted to point out that occupations such as ag work, construction, or grounds maintenance are of "low skill" as we've come to define them. A worker is not required to have a high school diploma to get a job in many of these sectors, being a good metric to define "low skill". The simple fact that employers in the United States can hire productive unauthorized immigrant workers, something which you are clearly concerned about, with little to no secondary education from a foreign country whose primary language isn't even English should make that clear.
You and I agree that a certain supply of [illegal] immigrant workers can have a detrimental effect on employment opportunities and wages for native born workers based on the supply of workers in a sector increasing. I personally come to this conclusion based on studies that show the particular negative effects of illegal immigrant workers in urban areas on the African-American native worker population. I think we also agree that's it's strange, to say the least, the some would put illegal workers interests as a political constituency ahead of tax paying citizens. However, what I am trying to point out to you is that there are other things that effect the supply of workers in low skilled positions besides illegal immigration. Primarily, the fact that lower skilled positions always have certain a higher supply of labor as a percentage of the total labor market precisely because they are lower skilled and more people can do it (that's not a bigoted statement, as previously discussed). There's always a natural compensation ceiling to lower skilled occupations, so if we're trying to fight for the plight of lower class and lower middles class native born workers there are likely many other things at play here than besides myopically focusing on Reagan-opened-the-immigrant-labor-floodgates-for-the-one-percent narrative.
Maybe we’re getting somewhere. Growth as in let’s cram as many people into this country as we can. Because the more people are here the more spending occurs. Whether that spending be from the consumer or from the government to support a larger population, deficit spending be damned. If that’s what you’re saying then maybe we have a starting point, although I don’t see the direct connection between low wages and high property values. Neither would particularly help large powerful corporations. Low wage earners don’t spend as much money and actually drive down property value. But if we ignore that and focus on overall growth then your conspiracy theory might have some weight in plausibility.
Politicians might have incentive to keep growth going. Yes, low wage earners will drive down property value but if you counter that with the alternative, which is absolutely no demand, then we could see why the aim is to keep growth moving forward no matter what.
This is the best I can do as far as meeting you half way. I still don’t think human beings are thoughtful enough to partake in conspiracies. This is a general opinion.
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John, you know I love to have yo posting here, but we are not going to allow this kind of thing. I'm removing it.
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Remove whatever you want. I'm done being a punching bag for trolls.
That's not strange at all, that's just political corruption, influence peddling and the corporate money influencing party politics.
The key is in the sense that it's easy to forge or acquire a social to work under, it's very hard to forge a college degree or a technical certification, the only way to get one of those jobs is through a work visa and the skilled workers have too much political clout still to allow the visa caps to be lifted and put their own jobs at risk.
I'm not concerned for the illegal workers, my primary concern is for my fellow Americans in the demographic they compete economically with, the American working poor and especially the American working poor of color have a hard enough time as it is without the 1% keeping the labor market they're trying to compete in flooded with foreign workers and the schools their kids go to flooded with extremely extensive to educate ELL kids who enter the system behind.
Quite simply it is time to flat out ignore the corporate racist howlers who use accusations of racism to protect their business interests while screwing over the American working poor of color.