Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

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Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:41 pm

Anyone who has read more then a couple of my posts knows this is an area I'm particularly focused on. It's not so much that I find it more interesting then other aspects of humanity it's that it seems to be something it is becoming more and more pervasive in our society. This kind of extreme in grouping and out grouping can become about just about anything, and often grows from the idea that our in group has a common goal that is a 0 sum game vs the common goal of the out group. How aligned this is with reality is unimportant. what matters is that people believe it.

One interesting thing I learned from this episode is that the in fighting comes down to a single simply concept, motivations. People tend to assume that any action from their side is motivated from love of the in group and that any motivation from the other side is motivated by hatred for the out group. This creates a complex tapestry in which almost any behavior from our in group becomes acceptable and almost any behavior from our out group becomes presumed evil. This prevents people from even really seeing each other at all and drives more and more divisiveness.

The brought up an interesting study in the The Robbers Cave experiment. Muzafer Sherif took several boys into a camp scenario and made them two teams, the Rattlesnakes and the Eagles. At first the rules were set up so that the campers were completing for a award. Animosity between the groups quickly escalated into damaging of each others property and even out right assault. What is interesting is that as the experimenter went on the boys were able to become friendly just as quickly as the rules changed and they were forced to work together for a common goal. Unfortunately when this happens in real life that common goal is far to often the existence of a new, stronger out group, and only results in the creation of a larger tribe.

As people in these tribes become more and more entrenched they lose there sense of self and the tribe becomes their main source of identity. You and I are capable of things we never dreamed possible when it comes to protecting our tribe. I find that very sobering to think about.



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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by eponymousbosch?^ » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:27 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:41 pm
Anyone who has read more then a couple of my posts knows this is an area I'm particularly focused on. It's not so much that I find it more interesting then other aspects of humanity it's that it seems to be something it is becoming more and more pervasive in our society. This kind of extreme in grouping and out grouping can become about just about anything, and often grows from the idea that our in group has a common goal that is a 0 sum game vs the common goal of the out group. How aligned this is with reality is unimportant. what matters is that people believe it.

One interesting thing I learned from this episode is that the in fighting comes down to a single simply concept, motivations. People tend to assume that any action from their side is motivated from love of the in group and that any motivation from the other side is motivated by hatred for the out group. This creates a complex tapestry in which almost any behavior from our in group becomes acceptable and almost any behavior from our out group becomes presumed evil. This prevents people from even really seeing each other at all and drives more and more divisiveness.

The brought up an interesting study in the The Robbers Cave experiment. Muzafer Sherif took several boys into a camp scenario and made them two teams, the Rattlesnakes and the Eagles. At first the rules were set up so that the campers were completing for a award. Animosity between the groups quickly escalated into damaging of each others property and even out right assault. What is interesting is that as the experimenter went on the boys were able to become friendly just as quickly as the rules changed and they were forced to work together for a common goal. Unfortunately when this happens in real life that common goal is far to often the existence of a new, stronger out group, and only results in the creation of a larger tribe.

As people in these tribes become more and more entrenched they lose there sense of self and the tribe becomes their main source of identity. You and I are capable of things we never dreamed possible when it comes to protecting our tribe. I find that very sobering to think about.
Sounds like a "Lord of the Flies" context. In High School, I hung out with either the Service Brats, like myself, or the Band Set. The main subset of at least 1/3 of all the campus was the Pot Culture, which probably brought elements of Most Subsets together than any other one thing.
But I was Stoned at that time, And my perceptive memory could be skewed.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Eryk » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:29 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:41 pm
People tend to assume that any action from their side is motivated from love of the in group and that any motivation from the other side is motivated by hatred for the out group. This creates a complex tapestry in which almost any behavior from our in group becomes acceptable and almost any behavior from our out group becomes presumed evil. This prevents people from even really seeing each other at all and drives more and more divisiveness.
I have absolutely noticed this. It’s sort of a spin off of the saying “treat others as you want to be treated.” People expect others to treat them with the same disdain they treat others. So if you treat people in the other group with malicious intent you automatically expect that in return and therefore you are always and constantly on the defensive.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:04 am

eponymousbosch?^ wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:27 pm
Sounds like a "Lord of the Flies" context. In High School,
Except real in this case. What I found most interesting was that it was almost as easy to change as it was to create.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:05 am

Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:29 pm
People expect others to treat them with the same disdain they treat others
It's more then that. People feel their disdain is justified becasue they other side exists only to hurt them.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Eryk » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:32 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:05 am
It's more then that. People feel their disdain is justified becasue they other side exists only to hurt them.
I just remembered an encounter from my Disqus days. I do lean Conservative and would often go to this left leaning channel where a few of the regulars hated me. The topic was immigration which is one of the issues where I’m more leftist or moderate and I don’t see eye to eye with most conservatives. Well I laid out a pro immigration argument that laid out the economic advantages of immigration...legal or otherwise. Well one of my haters, who is also pro immigration, said that my argument was very greedy and self serving. Because I guess were supposed to be pro immigration because it’s the right thing to do. NOT because it presents any social or economic advantages. My point being that if someone pegs you as part of another tribe they will find something wrong with everything you do. Even when you are in agreement, they’ll attack you for your nefarious motivations. Haha...people are unbelievable.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by LivenLearn » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:40 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:05 am
Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:29 pm
People expect others to treat them with the same disdain they treat others
It's more then that. People feel their disdain is justified becasue they other side exists only to hurt them.
I think these notions are intertwined and play a part in tribalistic behaviour. My question goes to the thinking or behaviour prior to both notions. Why do people feel disdain towards others? It is not innate and, I believe, is mostly a learned behaviour - ironic given that ignorance is the cause and result of this learning.

Us vs Them is largely assumptive based on fear or, conversely, fear based on assumptions. I think the phrase 'fear of the unknown' can be heard as a rally cry for tribalism.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by LivingRock » Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:44 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:41 pm
...it seems to be something it is becoming more and more pervasive in our society. This kind of extreme in grouping and out grouping can become about just about anything, and often grows from the idea that our in group has a common goal that is a 0 sum game vs the common goal of the out group. How aligned this is with reality is unimportant. what matters is that people believe it.
That said, it's not hopeless. Perhaps the core insight of the Enlightenment was affirming the existence of non-zero-sum relationships (a core insight our President seems to have missed). Prior, under mass Christianity morality flowed through a preached love for humanity in order to repress the law of nature, yet the end result was hatred against another group that brought war and violence that killed millions. Group hate on a mass scale.

However, I've seen a theory on a modern a prevalent worldview that has put us (the western world) more and more in that law of nature (survival of the fittest) zero-sum mindset. Christianity has waned as the moral pole star and is being replaced by nature, in a sense. The idea is since people are no different than animals, and since animals live in herds in order to attain well-being from the good of their group, then so do people. Also, within the group the individual urges are repressed by the other members. So people will care for each other the way animals care for each other. The progressive (small "p") dream is to herd people together to restrain their natural urge to compete on a violent zero-sum level for survival. Family groups, gender groups, sexual orientation groups, ethnic groups, tribal groups, age groups economic level groups, and so on. Each member sacrificing their individual self-interest for the group along the way. Then the groups could be expanded across the globe and humanity will be united (perhaps even politically). However, baring the miracle that humanity across the globe actually unites in these groups, what ends up happening is the groups inevitably fight each other. And also if an individual cannot find a group in this society of groups...well, need we discuss the alienated lone wolf shooter? Lone man hates on a mass scale, and groups still fight.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Z is for Zangie » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:49 pm

Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:29 pm


I have absolutely noticed this. It’s sort of a spin off of the saying “treat others as you want to be treated.” People expect others to treat them with the same disdain they treat others. So if you treat people in the other group with malicious intent you automatically expect that in return and therefore you are always and constantly on the defensive.
In my case, I see that not being willing to be mean to people because they think differently than me leads to me being treated much better by the opposing "tribe", and treated as if I am actually part of the opposing side, by those I had assumed were part of the same "tribe" I am.

Though, I actually don't believe in tribes of any kind..I judge people by who they are and as whole individuals, not just by their political views...and I apparently do not see evil in seeing the world or politics differently than other people. And good luck trying to convince my "tribe" that everyone who disagrees with them is not evil, or has any evil intent.

This attitude lately caused me a lot of pain as far as forums go, and lots of stress...but, I will maintain that the tribalism is what is really going to destroy us as a country if it continues, or, God forbid...gets worse

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:29 pm

Eryk wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:32 pm
hey’ll attack you for your nefarious motivations. Haha...people are unbelievable.
It sounds like you got lucky. Normally people like that just call me a liar when I agree with them. And then proceed to argue ageist what I "really" believe. :lol:

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:31 pm

LivenLearn wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:40 pm
Why do people feel disdain towards others?
That is what this 6 part series is exploring. It appears the most honest anwser is it depends. There's at least enough variety to fill up 6 hours of tv. I'm going to do one of these for every episode.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:36 pm

LivingRock wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:44 pm
However, baring the miracle that humanity across the globe actually unites in these groups, what ends up happening is the groups inevitably fight each other. And also if an individual cannot find a group in this society of groups...well, need we discuss the alienated lone wolf shooter? Lone man hates on a mass scale, and groups still fight.
Yes, that is more or less what we saw in the The Robbers Cave experiment. The question then becomes how do we get their as a people world wide?

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Eryk » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:20 pm

Z is for Zangie wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:49 pm
Though, I actually don't believe in tribes of any kind..I judge people by who they are and as whole individuals, not just by their political views...and I apparently do not see evil in seeing the world or politics differently than other people. And good luck trying to convince my "tribe" that everyone who disagrees with them is not evil, or has any evil intent.
In this regard I think we are cut from the same cloth. I tend to see the good in most situations and people. It might’ve burned me here and there but for the most part people tend to let their guard around me no matter what their tribe. The only place this isn’t true is on the Internet. It’s literally the only place people don’t like me. IRL I find it hard meeting people I dislike or that dislike me. And I’m from Chicago, one of the most tribal places I’ve seen anyway.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Eryk » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:25 pm

Z is for Zangie wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:49 pm
This attitude lately caused me a lot of pain as far as forums go, and lots of stress...but, I will maintain that the tribalism is what is really going to destroy us as a country if it continues, or, God forbid...gets worse
Sorry it’s giving you stress. I hope I’m not part of that stress.

Yeah things are pretty bad. Probably not as bad as the 60s. War makes people anxious. The way I look at it, so long as we avoid war than whatever in fighting is taking place could be out of boredom. Because we’re humans and it’s in our nature or something. *shrug

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Z is for Zangie » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:54 pm

Eryk wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:25 pm
Z is for Zangie wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:49 pm
This attitude lately caused me a lot of pain as far as forums go, and lots of stress...but, I will maintain that the tribalism is what is really going to destroy us as a country if it continues, or, God forbid...gets worse
Sorry it’s giving you stress. I hope I’m not part of that stress.

Yeah things are pretty bad. Probably not as bad as the 60s. War makes people anxious. The way I look at it, so long as we avoid war than whatever in fighting is taking place could be out of boredom. Because we’re humans and it’s in our nature or something. *shrug
No, you aren't Eryk...this particular stuff came from the left

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Z is for Zangie » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:58 pm

Eryk wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:20 pm
Z is for Zangie wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:49 pm
Though, I actually don't believe in tribes of any kind..I judge people by who they are and as whole individuals, not just by their political views...and I apparently do not see evil in seeing the world or politics differently than other people. And good luck trying to convince my "tribe" that everyone who disagrees with them is not evil, or has any evil intent.
In this regard I think we are cut from the same cloth. I tend to see the good in most situations and people. It might’ve burned me here and there but for the most part people tend to let their guard around me no matter what their tribe. The only place this isn’t true is on the Internet. It’s literally the only place people don’t like me. IRL I find it hard meeting people I dislike or that dislike me. And I’m from Chicago, one of the most tribal places I’ve seen anyway.
Yeah, this is the only place I have trouble with people not liking me, sure, not all people will ever...but in real life most people really like me...though I will say not seeing faces, body language etc is part of that...but ,I live in a red area...and no one talks to me the way some have on the internet...and certainly no lefties do...sigh...and no attacks either, and we can debate without hate...this leads me to believe that the internet is not fair representation of the public at large...and more extreme views of all kinds seem bigger here and way louder...lol

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Roam85 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:07 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:05 am
Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:29 pm
People expect others to treat them with the same disdain they treat others
It's more then that. People feel their disdain is justified becasue they other side exists only to hurt them.
Also comes from a lot of listening to the other side.

I've read and heard a lot of "Liberals need to be nicer to conservatives, treating people like they're dumb doesn't help". And I've read and heard it from liberals and conservatives.

But I really never read about how conservatives treat liberals. From anyone.

As a liberal, I can tell you it's generally 'like sh*t'. So while I get the ideal you're going for, I hope you understand my view of the inability to understand exhaustion on this subject and the thought of "no, treat as you have been treated" not 'as you perceive the treatment.'

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Z is for Zangie » Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:14 pm

Roam85 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:07 pm
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:05 am
Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:29 pm
People expect others to treat them with the same disdain they treat others
It's more then that. People feel their disdain is justified becasue they other side exists only to hurt them.
Also comes from a lot of listening to the other side.

I've read and heard a lot of "Liberals need to be nicer to conservatives, treating people like they're dumb doesn't help". And I've read and heard it from liberals and conservatives.

But I really never read about how conservatives treat liberals. From anyone.

As a liberal, I can tell you it's generally 'like sh*t'. So while I get the ideal you're going for, I hope you understand my view of the inability to understand exhaustion on this subject and the thought of "no, treat as you have been treated" not 'as you perceive the treatment.'
I have seen the reverse a lot on AA, especially the PO...

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Roam85 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:17 pm

Z is for Zangie wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:14 pm
Roam85 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:07 pm
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:05 am

It's more then that. People feel their disdain is justified becasue they other side exists only to hurt them.
Also comes from a lot of listening to the other side.

I've read and heard a lot of "Liberals need to be nicer to conservatives, treating people like they're dumb doesn't help". And I've read and heard it from liberals and conservatives.

But I really never read about how conservatives treat liberals. From anyone.

As a liberal, I can tell you it's generally 'like sh*t'. So while I get the ideal you're going for, I hope you understand my view of the inability to understand exhaustion on this subject and the thought of "no, treat as you have been treated" not 'as you perceive the treatment.'
I have seen the reverse a lot on AA, especially the PO...
You've seen the conservative posters (and not Guide, he's a centrist) actually say "And conservatives need to start speaking about liberals like they're people" on AA?

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:17 pm

Roam85 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:07 pm
But I really never read about how conservatives treat liberals. From anyone.
I think that is in part because (and I'm going to be very general here) Conservatives tend to be more direct and openly aggressive. That behavior requires no explanation. It's pretty obvious. I've talked about it a lot BTW. For instance I really do like a lot of arguments Ben Shapiro makes, at the same time I've been very critical at the way he's treated some people who disagree with him. His popularizing of the term "leftist" to describe the authoritarian left has been nothing but problematic and confusion. He can also be quite dismissive which doesn't help anyone.

The difference is that when we talk about about liberals they tend to have a culture that is a bit more subtle (to put it nicely). Their brand of mistreatment is often cloaked in a veneer a civility. There is much more to discuss. for example if you call someone a "Stupid Libertarian" you are being an ass and everyone can plainly see it, but if you call someone a "racist" because you don't like their views on race there are layers to that insault.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:22 pm

Roam85 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:17 pm
and not Guide, he's a centrist
Thank you. Although I've never thought of my self as much of a centrist. A lot of my views are pretty extreme. I guess I borrow enough from both sides to even myself out. :lol:

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Roam85 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:27 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:17 pm
Roam85 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:07 pm
But I really never read about how conservatives treat liberals. From anyone.
I think that is in part because (and I'm going to be very general here) Conservatives tend to be more direct and openly aggressive. That behavior requires no explanation. It's pretty obvious. I've talked about it a lot BTW. For instance I really do like a lot of arguments Ben Shapiro makes, at the same time I've been very critical at the way he's treated some people who disagree with him. His popularizing of the term "leftist" to describe the authoritarian left has been nothing but problematic and confusion. He can also be quite dismissive which doesn't help anyone.

The difference is that when we talk about about liberals they tend to have a culture that is a bit more subtle (to put it nicely). Their brand of mistreatment is often cloaked in a veneer a civility. There is much more to discuss. for example if you call someone a "Stupid Libertarian" you are being an ass and everyone can plainly see it, but if you call someone a "racist" because you don't like their views on race there are layers to that insault.
Eh for me after Shapiro had lines like "The only reason to ever speak to a lefitst is to insult them or to publicly humiliate them" and "Atheists cannot have free will" I think I've given up on even bothering paying attention to a word he says.

He shouldn't hold it against me, he doesn't think I had free will to make that decision.

Also his little b**** and run on the BBC because he can't handle a question about his own rhetoric was laughable.

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:35 pm

Roam85 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:27 pm
Eh for me after Shapiro had lines like "The only reason to ever speak to a lefitst is to insult them or to publicly humiliate them" and "Atheists cannot have free will" I think I've given up on even bothering paying attention to a word he says.
Precisely my point. He makes those kinds of points and his more valid interesting points get buried by that behavior. It doesn't help his cause in the way he seems to think it does. It just plays well to those who are already in his tribe. He's not winning over anyone new.
Roam85 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:27 pm
Also his little b**** and run on the BBC because he can't handle a question about his own rhetoric was laughable.
To his credit he publicly apologized for that episode. But it was a great example of tribalism. Shapiro was asked a hard question and immediately decided that the interviewer was part of his out group, 'leftists". He then reacted as one would with someone who is actively trying to harm them. In the end he came across as defensive and unprepared. Mostly because he was unprepared and acted defensively. :lol:

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Z is for Zangie » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:43 pm

Roam85 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:17 pm
Z is for Zangie wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:14 pm
Roam85 wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:07 pm


Also comes from a lot of listening to the other side.

I've read and heard a lot of "Liberals need to be nicer to conservatives, treating people like they're dumb doesn't help". And I've read and heard it from liberals and conservatives.

But I really never read about how conservatives treat liberals. From anyone.

As a liberal, I can tell you it's generally 'like sh*t'. So while I get the ideal you're going for, I hope you understand my view of the inability to understand exhaustion on this subject and the thought of "no, treat as you have been treated" not 'as you perceive the treatment.'
I have seen the reverse a lot on AA, especially the PO...
You've seen the conservative posters (and not Guide, he's a centrist) actually say "And conservatives need to start speaking about liberals like they're people" on AA?
No, I probably misunderstood you, I have seen them complain about how badly conservatives talk to them and treat them, and that justifies how they speak to them...from the left-leaning people, and yes, I know what he is, I am center-left...I guess it depends on how you define the left/middle thing...I have heard rational right-leaning people, ( I don't hang out with the irrational ones...lol), say we all should treat each other better, and I thought that was what this thread is about...tribalism on both sides?

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Re: Why We Hate Episode 2: Tribalism

Post by Roam85 » Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:49 pm

edit: Deleted because I accidentally posted it again in an attempt to edit.

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