Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

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Eryk
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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Eryk » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:59 pm

former_rwd wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:06 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:02 pm
Well in our constitutional republic, you need 2/3rds of our elected officials to agree. Is that realistic even if it is technically possible??
We're discussing opinions and their values here - not the legal processes.
I still say all opinions have value. Even ones that say that the moon is made from cheese.



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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by former_rwd » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:06 pm

Eryk wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:59 pm
I still say all opinions have value. Even ones that say that the moon is made from cheese.
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, then. Stuff like "the moon is made of cheese" is there to be mocked - if one does want to spare time doing so. Nothing above that.

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Eryk » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:21 pm

former_rwd wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:06 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:59 pm
I still say all opinions have value. Even ones that say that the moon is made from cheese.
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, then. Stuff like "the moon is made of cheese" is there to be mocked - if one does want to spare time doing so. Nothing above that.
I would prefer that we mock and ridicule unpopular opinions than tell people that their unpopular opinion is forbidden from the public square. I see that as tyranny.

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Eryk » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:21 pm

Eryk wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:21 pm
former_rwd wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:06 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:59 pm
I still say all opinions have value. Even ones that say that the moon is made from cheese.
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, then. Stuff like "the moon is made of cheese" is there to be mocked - if one does want to spare time doing so. Nothing above that.
I would prefer that we mock and ridicule unpopular opinions than tell people that their unpopular opinion is forbidden from the public square. I see that as tyranny.
And also presumptuous...

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by former_rwd » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:32 pm

Eryk wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:21 pm
I would prefer that we mock and ridicule unpopular opinions than tell people that their unpopular opinion is forbidden from the public square.
Having no value is not at all the same as forbidden.

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Eryk » Tue Nov 12, 2019 7:54 pm

@former_rwd

You’re not talking about policy. You’re not talking about speech.

Are you talking about like conversation or something? If yes then whether or not your opinion has value depends 100% on whether or not I like you. Substance is completely irrelevant. So you could be a renowned expert on a subject, if I don’t like you then your opinion is worthless. Likewise, you could be a complete ignoramos but if I like you or if I at least find you amusing, then your opinion has worth.

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:26 pm

Eryk wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:21 pm
Well the way to determine is to get 51% of congress to agree. Or 2/3rds for Amendments.
I"m not necessarily talking about how it could be accomplished legally, but how it could be accomplished morally. The majority agreeing on something doesn't make it right.

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Z is for Zangie » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:26 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:26 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:21 pm
Well the way to determine is to get 51% of congress to agree. Or 2/3rds for Amendments.
I"m not necessarily talking about how it could be accomplished legally, but how it could be accomplished morally. The majority agreeing on something doesn't make it right.
Well, as with everything, especially these days...there is no such thing as anything everyone agrees with, I don't think to give in to minorities, and dismissing majorities is ok either, or that they should control all policy and decisions, that is how we got Trump... , but, then I tend to go with voting on everything political or not as the only way to come to a consensus on anything...it is how states determine winners for instance...

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:40 pm

Z is for Zangie wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:26 pm
Well, as with everything, especially these days...there is no such thing as anything everyone agrees with
Totally different conversation. We are talking about who should have the right to vote and how that gets decided.
Z is for Zangie wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:26 pm
I don't think to give in to minorities, and dismissing majorities is ok either, or that they should control all policy and decisions, that is how we got Trump...
That isn't at all what happened. The presidential election has been designed to respect the differences across multiple regions of the country not to determine what the majority of people want. It's about balancing representation of disparate needs. Majority rule is inherently tyrannical.

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Eryk » Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:23 pm

Z is for Zangie wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:26 pm
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:26 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:21 pm
Well the way to determine is to get 51% of congress to agree. Or 2/3rds for Amendments.
I"m not necessarily talking about how it could be accomplished legally, but how it could be accomplished morally. The majority agreeing on something doesn't make it right.
Well, as with everything, especially these days...there is no such thing as anything everyone agrees with, I don't think to give in to minorities, and dismissing majorities is ok either, or that they should control all policy and decisions, that is how we got Trump... , but, then I tend to go with voting on everything political or not as the only way to come to a consensus on anything...it is how states determine winners for instance...
By setting such a high standard for change, 2/3rds vote, it gives more power to the individual. It makes it harder for the majority or the mob to force any kind of tyrannical power to minorities or the smallest minority of all, the individual.

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Delenda Est » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:58 pm

There's a lot to be said for a parliamentary system; in retrospect it wasn't a good idea on the part of the Founders, to have the Chief Magistrate directly elected by the people (though I think if they anticipated that the people would eventually include the unpropertied, not to mention women, they would have scrapped the idea). One of the reasons why Latin American democracy is so weak, is that they imitated our system with its three independent branches of government. And that system for various reasons selects for the concentration of power in the Executive. In the US we have observed just in the short time of this century, how advocates of Executive power have been able to press the argument that the President is literally above the law. It starts with the conceit of the "the Unitary Executive," that all the powers of the Executive branch, including that of all the offices in the bureaucracy, ultimately rest in the President's hand. This of course includes the power of the AG, so that if the President is to be prosecuted it can only be at his own behest. This idea is frankly madness, and it directly translates into the President being able to function as dictator. Unsurprisingly, it's always been conservatives who are all for this radically expansive interpretation of the President's power.

We are in a period of full-blown Constitutional crisis. Repeatedly this decade the Republicans have violated the Separation of Powers, whenever it suited their political agenda to do so. For them getting and keeping power seems to be their first and last objective. It begs credulity that they would not have long since moved to impeach a Dem President who did just a fraction of what Trump has; but since the Demagogue is Their Man, they will look the other way to the end. It's an absolute disgrace, but it shows how corrupting the desire for power can be.

Unfortunately, the Republicans' scorched-earth attitude towards our institutions, is gradually going to elicit similar behavior from the Democrats, particularly regards the Courts. The Kavanaugh-confirmation circus was mostly the Democrats' doing, and Heaven Help Us if Trump comes to put his own man in a seat vacated by the "notorious" RBG, between now and the election. Democrats would cease to regard the high Court as legitimate, with who knows what institution-busting consequences.

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Z is for Zangie » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:48 pm

Delenda Est wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:58 pm
There's a lot to be said for a parliamentary system; in retrospect it wasn't a good idea on the part of the Founders, to have the Chief Magistrate directly elected by the people (though I think if they anticipated that the people would eventually include the unpropertied, not to mention women, they would have scrapped the idea). One of the reasons why Latin American democracy is so weak, is that they imitated our system with its three independent branches of government. And that system for various reasons selects for the concentration of power in the Executive. In the US we have observed just in the short time of this century, how advocates of Executive power have been able to press the argument that the President is literally above the law. It starts with the conceit of the "the Unitary Executive," that all the powers of the Executive branch, including that of all the offices in the bureaucracy, ultimately rest in the President's hand. This of course includes the power of the AG, so that if the President is to be prosecuted it can only be at his own behest. This idea is frankly madness, and it directly translates into the President being able to function as dictator. Unsurprisingly, it's always been conservatives who are all for this radically expansive interpretation of the President's power.

We are in a period of full-blown Constitutional crisis. Repeatedly this decade the Republicans have violated the Separation of Powers, whenever it suited their political agenda to do so. For them getting and keeping power seems to be their first and last objective. It begs credulity that they would not have long since moved to impeach a Dem President who did just a fraction of what Trump has; but since the Demagogue is Their Man, they will look the other way to the end. It's an absolute disgrace, but it shows how corrupting the desire for power can be.

Unfortunately, the Republicans' scorched-earth attitude towards our institutions, is gradually going to elicit similar behavior from the Democrats, particularly regards the Courts. The Kavanaugh-confirmation circus was mostly the Democrats' doing, and Heaven Help Us if Trump comes to put his own man in a seat vacated by the "notorious" RBG, between now and the election. Democrats would cease to regard the high Court as legitimate, with who knows what institution-busting consequences.
Hi DE..nice to see you

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Delenda Est » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:22 am

Hi, Zangie - ! I hope life is treating you good :)

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Z is for Zangie » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:29 pm

Delenda Est wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:22 am
Hi, Zangie - ! I hope life is treating you good :)
Eh...it's been better...lol..but, I am hanging in there...such is life...lol.thanks

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Delenda Est » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:00 pm

I hear you. But Happy Thanksgiving, anyway...!

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Z is for Zangie » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:12 pm

Delenda Est wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:00 pm
I hear you. But Happy Thanksgiving, anyway...!
Thanks, you too, my turkey is smelling awesome

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:40 pm

Delenda Est wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:22 am
Hi, Zangie - ! I hope life is treating you good
Good to see you posting again Delenda. I was worried someone had scared you off.

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Re: Political scientists have studied what our democracy is going through. It usually doesn’t end well.

Post by Delenda Est » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:20 pm

Oh no, I was just not around my computer for awhile...

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