Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

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Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:51 pm

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ks/613375/


We often have the wrong conversation about government. Or rather we have two different conversations. On one side you have the, “but people will die argument” on the other you have the “liberty” argument. It’s no secret that I’m more of a liberty guy, but that’s beside the point. When discussing government, we should be talking about what is the role of government and why.

This brings us to the great facemask debate. Should the government have the authority to force you to wear a mask? If you say yes my next question would what role of government does this fit into? To me “Saving lives” is not a role of government onto itself, but public health and safety are. It should be obvious how requiring a mask during a pandemic fits into this idea.

I understand that some extreme libertarians reject the government’s involvement in anything. It is consistent for them to oppose face mask laws. If you support Police, Fire, laws against poisoning air and water, then you already support the government taking a role in public health and safety. The only logical reason to not extend the role to masks is that the mask laws inconvenience you. That is a selfish position, not a liberty position.

“But the Constitution” … The Constitution says nothing, what so ever about clothing. One could argue that how you dress is an expression and part of speech in an indirect way. We are not being told what may be expressed on our masks. It’s also important to recognize that the Constitution makes a delineation between the State and Federal governments. The 10th amendment gives the State governments more latitude in regards to individual rights then it does the Federal government. The 14th amendment extended some restrictions to the States. There are still centuries of case law that show the States are less restricted.

A justification that I’m less happy with is public clothing laws. State and local governments already set laws about which body parts must be covered in public. Some violations of these laws have very serious consequences. If you support these laws a facemask falls din line with the same role of government. There is much better constitutional (and my joy) argument against forcing women to cover their breasts in public then there is against requiring masks in public.

Rather or not something is within the given role of government is a different conversation than whether or not it should be enacted. You might disagree with the decision to require masks for any number of reasons and we certainly can talk those through. Just stop squawking about your “rights”. There is nothing about the government's approach to the pandemic that has violated you. In the meantime, how about you stop killing people?



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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:59 am

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:51 pm
Just stop squawking about your “rights”. There is nothing about the government's approach to the pandemic that has violated you. In the meantime, how about you stop killing people?
Here is the problem with your argument. The presumption that you are right and other people are wrong, and therefore must follow your rules. This isn’t how freedom works.

This IS about our rights. Forcing us to take certain actions or forbidding us to take certain actions is a violation of our rights. It’s that simple. What you gave is a justification that might satisfy YOU but that’s about it.

Yes, we allow the government to regulate things like the FDA and OSHA and such. But they do it with our permission. If we want to say no to regulation we disapprove of because we refuse to tolerate that specific infringement of our freedoms, then that’s our right.

Maybe you think that we don’t have that right because it puts others in danger. If something is dangerous enough, the people will accept regulation. Such as regulation to car safety, getting a drivers license, cleaning smoke stacks. A large portion of the population are not accepting that covid-19 is dangerous enough to warrant extra regulation. Or we are ok with some regulation, such as social distancing, but wearing masks might be a bridge too far. We all have a different tolerance for risk. If covid-19 had a 10% death rate rather than .5% I’m sure you wouldn’t even have to ask people to wear masks. We’d all be wearing them happily until a vaccine was available. This is how free society works. Things typically work themselves out the way they are supposed to work out.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:09 am

Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:59 am
Here is the problem with your argument. The presumption that you are right and other people are wrong, and therefore must follow your rules. This isn’t how freedom works.
That ignores everything I said.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:59 am
This IS about our rights. Forcing us to take certain actions or forbidding us to take certain actions is a violation of our rights.
Like forbidding murder? Which you so vehemently argued was not against liberty just last week. Not all limits on our action are a violation of right.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:59 am
Yes, we allow the government to regulate things like the FDA and OSHA and such. But they do it with our permission.
That's nonsense. Try not giving your consent to those regulations and see what happens. You are arguing exactly what I said, you are okay with limits on liberty you agree with. That is a very selfish view of liberty.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:59 am
Maybe you think that we don’t have that right because it puts others in danger.
That isn't what I said at all, and I'm afraid you missed the entire point of what I wrote and completely ignored the conversation about the role of government for , "You can't make me do what I don't want to do." Which only illustrates my point. I'm not surprised actually.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:32 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:09 am
You are arguing exactly what I said, you are okay with limits on liberty you agree with. That is a very selfish view of liberty.
Yes, I am ok with limits on liberty I agree with. That’s the way laws work. Whether or not you think it’s selfish is completely irrelevant. People have their reasons. They could be selfish. Or maybe they doubt the science. Or maybe they only trust the government with certain powers. It doesn’t matter. You trying to justify limitations on our liberty because you think it’s selfish otherwise doesn’t add anything to your logical reasoning.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:36 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:09 am
That's nonsense. Try not giving your consent to those regulations and see what happens.
There are people who think OSHA is unnecessary and has done very little. If enough people support politicians who agree, they could disband or defund OSHA. Again, that’s how voting for people works.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:42 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:09 am
Like forbidding murder? Which you so vehemently argued was not against liberty just last week. Not all limits on our action are a violation of right.
No, if you recall at the end I ended up agreeing that murdering babies and the right to enslave other human beings are infringements. If you are going to bring back something I said weeks ago in another discussion, atleast get the details right.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:51 pm

Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:32 pm
yes, I am ok with limits on liberty I agree with. That’s the way laws work.
No, no it is not. Your personal agreement doesn't change the law, nor does it change the moral imperatives that drive government. That is such a sophomoric and selfish approach to liberty, and shows only a base level understanding and total lack of consideration for others. Fortunately the line has been clearly drawn. Even if you don't grasp it, it won't change it.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:32 pm
You trying to justify limitations on our liberty because you think it’s selfish otherwise doesn’t add anything to your logical reasoning.
Again not what I said. You are really good at ignoring logic that is laid out in front of you in favor of nonsense. I'm not sure there is anything I can say to you that will make you read and respond to what I actually wrote. You never seem to want to deal with any facts or arguments that don't fit your narrative. You just regurtagate your narrative as fact and never deal with anything that shows it to be false. We can go around in circles, but unless you are going to deal with what I actually write there isn't anything more that needs to be said.

Your argument boils down to, "No one call tell me what to do!" well I'm afraid you are very wrong there.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:36 pm
There are people who think OSHA is unnecessary and has done very little. If enough people support politicians who agree, they could disband or defund OSHA. Again, that’s how voting for people works.
Again? This is literally the first time you brought up voting. If you are going to be condescending at least be factually correct.

Sure, we could vote in any government that most people agree with. That really has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. The conversation presented, that you so skillfully ignored, is about the proper role of government and how it relates to mask requirements.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:42 pm
No, if you recall at the end I ended up agreeing that murdering babies and the right to enslave other human beings are infringements. If you are going to bring back something I said weeks ago in another discussion, atleast get the details right.

ROFLMAO.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:51 pm
No, no it is not. Your personal agreement doesn't change the law, nor does it change the moral imperatives that drive government.
I never said it changed the law. My personal disagreement means I can protest and declare that law an infringement of my rights. It means I can lobby politicians, launch propaganda campaigns, or even run for office myself in an attempt to "correct" this infringement of my rights.
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:51 pm
Again not what I said. You are really good at ignoring logic that is laid out in front of you in favor of nonsense. I'm not sure there is anything I can say to you that will make you read and respond to what I actually wrote. You never seem to want to deal with any facts or arguments that don't fit your narrative. You just regurtagate your narrative as fact and never deal with anything that shows it to be false. We can go around in circles, but unless you are going to deal with what I actually write there isn't anything more that needs to be said.
It's excessively ironic that you accuse me of this. This is exactly what you do to the "T". You even went so far as to suggest that laws I don't agree with don't apply to me. OMG, that is such a preposterous and gross misunderstanding of what I'm telling you. Do you underestimate my intelligence that much or is this just an exercise to justify your own pretzel logic??
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:51 pm
The conversation presented, that you so skillfully ignored, is about the proper role of government and how it relates to mask requirements.
I THOUGHT the conversation was about whether or not the government could require us to wear a mask and if that requirement is a violation of our "rights". I say, Yes, they can require us to wear a mask. And Yes, it can be a violation of our "rights" if we deem it so. Just because we believe it violates our "rights" doesn't mean we can discard it unless doing so is an act of protest. What am I misunderstanding here exactly??? Are you referring to "conflicting rights"? Your right to not get covid-19 is conflicting with my right not to wear a mask. That's of course an ongoing debate with no way to logically determine a winner or loser. It's like abortion. A woman's right to kill her baby conflicts with a baby's right to live. Those are conflicting rights. Nobody is right or wrong here.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:37 pm

Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm
My personal disagreement means I can protest and declare that law an infringement of my rights.
You can claim anything you want infringes on your rights. That doesn't make it true.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm
You even went so far as to suggest that laws I don't agree with don't apply to me.
Because you said...
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:32 pm
Yes, I am ok with limits on liberty I agree with. That’s the way laws work.
That was your argument not mine.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm
And Yes, it can be a violation of our "rights" if we deem it so.
Yes, and in your nihilistic vision of rights, they don't exist at all. They are based on nothing but someone's perception and therefor are meaningless.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm
I THOUGHT the conversation was about whether or not the government could require us to wear a mask and if that requirement is a violation of our "rights".
You thought wrong. The conversation is about weather or not the right to require masks is derived from a proper role of government. Which you refused to even consider.


Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm
Nobody is right or wrong here.
Right and wrong, no. But there is a logical and consistent applications of principles and an illogical emotional appeal. They are not of equal value.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:30 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:37 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm
My personal disagreement means I can protest and declare that law an infringement of my rights.
You can claim anything you want infringes on your rights. That doesn't make it true.
If that’s your opinion you are free to think that.
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:37 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm
You even went so far as to suggest that laws I don't agree with don't apply to me.
Because you said...
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:32 pm
Yes, I am ok with limits on liberty I agree with. That’s the way laws work.
That was your argument not mine.
Where in my statement did I say they don’t apply to me? You quoted me and it’s not there. You can’t just make stuff up.
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:37 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm
And Yes, it can be a violation of our "rights" if we deem it so.
Yes, and in your nihilistic vision of rights, they don't exist at all. They are based on nothing but someone's perception and therefor are meaningless.
Huh? Rights don’t exist at all? Where did you get that from? And if something is based on perception, why is it therefore meaningless??
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:37 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:51 pm
I THOUGHT the conversation was about whether or not the government could require us to wear a mask and if that requirement is a violation of our "rights".
You thought wrong. The conversation is about weather or not the right to require masks is derived from a proper role of government. Which you refused to even consider.
Hmmmm, so if it is derived from a proper role of government, does that mean we we shouldn’t “squawk about our rights”??? To be honest, I’m not sure if I understand this discussion. So if I misunderstood then I’m sorry. If I were a dictator and I tossed in a concentration camp anyone who spoke out against my regime or practiced religion or whatever triggered me...is that a proper role of government? Should my subjects not squawk if a significant portion end up in some kind of prison camp??

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:18 am

Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:30 pm
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:37 pm

Eryk wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:51 am
My personal disagreement means I can protest and declare that law an infringement of my rights.

You can claim anything you want infringes on your rights. That doesn't make it true.

If that’s your opinion you are free to think that.
I'm afraid that is a fact of logic. A claim in itself doesn't make the claim true. Now you aren't even trying.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:30 pm
Huh? Rights don’t exist at all? Where did you get that from? And if something is based on perception, why is it therefore meaningless??
By your definition they do not. Becasue words mean things. And you can't just make up your own meanings and expect to communicate with anyone else. Here is what "rights" means.

"2.a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way."

If rights only exist in your mind then there is no entitlement, only perception. Without the entitlement there is no right.

I know here is where you reject the commonly accepted definition an substitute your own, because you never let facts get in the way of your talking points.
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:30 pm
I’m not sure if I understand this discussion.
That is the first thing you said that is accurate lol

That is because before we can discuss whether or not the government should do something it's important to determine if it is a proper role of government. Otherwise there is no logical way to limit government. and you end up with the exact kinds of emotional, nihilistic arguments you are making. It matters because liberty does matter, but it only matters when it is consistently applied through logic and understanding, not the childish notion of "I do what I want!"
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:30 pm
I tossed in a concentration camp anyone who spoke out against my regime or practiced religion or whatever triggered me...is that a proper role of government?
Not at all. And I don't think anyone who believes in a limited government would argue it is.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:26 am

Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:30 pm
Huh? Rights don’t exist at all? Where did you get that from?
Let's take your logic on rights to it's logical conclusion. I'd love to hook up with Selma Hayek. She's never shown any interest in me. I guess that means she's violating my rights. So I had better take her to court for this violation of my rights.

Do you see how ridiculous this can be? If rights are simply emotional expression with no ties to logic or reason?

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:58 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:18 am
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:30 pm
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:37 pm

Eryk wrote: ↑
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:51 am
My personal disagreement means I can protest and declare that law an infringement of my rights.

You can claim anything you want infringes on your rights. That doesn't make it true.

If that’s your opinion you are free to think that.
I'm afraid that is a fact of logic. A claim in itself doesn't make the claim true. Now you aren't even trying.
You are missing the message I have been trying to deliver since the beginning of this argument. I'm not making an argument for truth. I'm not here trying to claim that I'm right and you're wrong. The only thing I'm attacking is your confident presumptions. You have a very authoritative and therefore intellectually sloppy way of thinking. Here is the very first thing I said in response to this post.
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:18 am
Just stop squawking about your “rights”. There is nothing about the government's approach to the pandemic that has violated you. In the meantime, how about you stop killing people?
Here is the problem with your argument. The presumption that you are right and other people are wrong, and therefore must follow your rules. This isn’t how freedom works.
You are dismissing a person's right to protest, disagree, give logical or emotional appeals to the contrary. Juxtapose your statement about "squawking about your rights" and "There is nothing about the government approach to the pandemic that has violated you" with your last statement.
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:18 am
Not at all. And I don't think anyone who believes in a limited government would argue it is.
You say you believe in limited government right. Just not when it comes to forcing people to wear masks? Where is the black/white line we can draw where you can so confidently tell people "stop squawking about your rights".

People don't have to be right or logical for that matter. You are claiming an absolute truth where none exists. Do you honestly believe in absolute truth here when we see so many SCOTUS decisions with 5-4 majorities??? Are you smarter than the rest of us?
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:18 am
By your definition they do not. Becasue words mean things. And you can't just make up your own meanings and expect to communicate with anyone else. Here is what "rights" means.

"2.a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way."

If rights only exist in your mind then there is no entitlement, only perception. Without the entitlement there is no right.

I know here is where you reject the commonly accepted definition an substitute your own, because you never let facts get in the way of your talking points.
Not at all. The definition said "moral or legal". Aren't moral entitlements perceptions? Therefore by your own hand picked definition I'm right! Here is where you need to be careful. Just because I'm right, doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:01 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:26 am
Eryk wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:30 pm
Huh? Rights don’t exist at all? Where did you get that from?
Let's take your logic on rights to it's logical conclusion. I'd love to hook up with Selma Hayek. She's never shown any interest in me. I guess that means she's violating my rights. So I had better take her to court for this violation of my rights.

Do you see how ridiculous this can be? If rights are simply emotional expression with no ties to logic or reason?
I wouldn't be the kind of person to force someone, such as Selma Hayek, to engage in sexual relations against their will. Would you be the kind of person to force someone to wear a mask against their will?? Is that your limited government?

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:53 pm

Eryk wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:58 pm
You have a very authoritative and therefore intellectually sloppy way of thinking.
That might be the most ironic thing I've ever read. I laid out my position with the underlining logic, I explained how it applied to the mask situation and gave other examples of how it is intellectually consistent. Your counter is "I don't wanna wear a mask so it's me right!" and you are calling me intellectually sloppy? Had you taken the time to address my premise we could have a conversation about where we disagree and it would be interesting perhaps even useful. Instead you respond with emotional nonsense, because you don't like the tone of my writing? I don't know what to say to you. You seem either incapable, or unwilling to explore a concept with any intellectual depth. You regurgitate talking points without apply any intellectual foundation and when challenged you repeat the same talking points over and over. Now you are claiming I'm intellectually sloppy? I can only conclude you either can't follow or can't rebut the logic so you resort canned responses. There really isn't any use in exploring this further. I'm not trying to be mean to you, I'm not even upset. It's just when you make such a ridicules assertion against me we've reached a point where there is no value in continuing unless I'm going to use you for personal amusement and I don't want to do that. Thanks for the laugh anyway.

I will tell you one more thing. Your position that rights are only perception is 100% supportive of the Progressive position you claim to be so ageist. I will leave it to you to figure out how or reject it.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:42 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:53 pm
Had you taken the time to address my premise we could have a conversation about where we disagree and it would be interesting perhaps even useful. Instead you respond with emotional nonsense, because you don't like the tone of my writing?
I have no problem with your claim about the role of government. I’m not in disagreement. There is nothing for me to argue about here. My opinion is irrelevant.

It doesn’t matter to me that you think it falls on the government to force us to wear a mask. What does matter is that you think we shouldn’t complain or “squawk” if we feel violated. Yes, my problem is your authoritarian tone.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm

Eryk wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:42 pm
What does matter is that you think we shouldn’t complain or “squawk” if we feel violated. Yes, my problem is your authoritarian tone.
I'm sorry you're triggered.

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by limoman » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:30 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:26 am
I'd love to hook up with Selma Hayek.
HEY!!! You'll have to get in line behind me first before you get your chance and Selma Haha

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:36 pm

limoman wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:30 pm
HEY!!! You'll have to get in line behind me first before you get your chance and Selma Haha
I hereby claim that cutting in line for Selma is my right!

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Re: Mask, Rights and the Role of Goverment

Post by Eryk » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:31 am

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:05 pm
Eryk wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:42 pm
What does matter is that you think we shouldn’t complain or “squawk” if we feel violated. Yes, my problem is your authoritarian tone.
I'm sorry you're triggered.
I accept your apology. I apologize for saying your ideas were dumb. My insult was actually a veiled compliment.

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