Charting our Economic Idealogies.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:55 pm

Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:00 pm
Some people realize that Libertarians don't all agree. There is a statistical distribution. The average Libertarian wants to move right. Less governance. If we move all the way to the right, we come to fascism, and anarchy. Might Makes right.
We aren't talking about right vs left here. That is the entire point of this post. To set those biases aside and have an intellectually honest conversation
Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:00 pm
The contract is The Constitution. And the policy to enforce is Article I, Section 8, Clause 7*. By failing to enforce that clause, we have enriched Bezos, and Zuckerberg to the point where their money and wealth has become a real power to threaten our government, and our ability to enforce the contract. (simply disgusting)
Again you miss the point. We aren't talking about the US economy but economic theory in a broader sense. And you reference the postal clause, which is clearly enforced by the fact that we have a post office. So your comments don't really make sense.
Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:00 pm
are only one Libertarian,
As I've told you before I'm not really a libertarian at all. I don't need to be part of a group to defend them from relentless and dishonest attacks. I've often defended socialism and the nordic model, neither of which are in line with my views.
Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:00 pm
Here you seem to suggest that ANY government involvement is bad.
I made no such suggestion. If you would have read my post you would see that I, in fact, believe in a level of government involvement. This is why we can't have conversations. Your responses are often no sequiturs. It makes it impossible.



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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:56 pm

Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:27 pm
ow the fvck do you bundle opposite ends of the spectrum?
Asked and answered.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:57 pm

Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:29 pm
You think you are right, and anyone with a disagreement is what? Troll? Liar? Dishonest?
Nope, not here. If you continue trollish behavior and personal attacks you won't be posting on 4E for long.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Cat's Paw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:02 pm

John B Des Moines wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:30 am
Socialism and fascism aren't the same thing. Period. It's a misunderstanding which exists mostly because the Conservative echo chamber has worked really hard to peddle it.
Thank You!

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Cat's Paw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:05 pm

John B Des Moines wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:30 am
Call me a mixed economy Capitalist with a lean toward the Social Democrat side, which also isn't Socialism though most of the political right insists that is the case.

Right on. If I say something stupid, everyone should agree with me, or they are dishonest liars! Call it a 'Flat Earther Argument."

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Cat's Paw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:09 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:15 am
Well, it doesn't help that we have a new batch of progressives who are trying to sell modern-day social democracies as "democratic socialism"
Be specific. What policy is Socialist?

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Deleted User 54 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:11 pm

John B Des Moines wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:30 am
Call me a mixed economy Capitalist with a lean toward the Social Democrat side, which also isn't Socialism though most of the political right insists that is the case.
I'm a communist that believes in the free market, which isn't capitalism though most of the political left insists that is the case. :roll:

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Cat's Paw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:27 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:55 pm
Again you miss the point.
The point is you pontificate.


Left v right is well established.

Communism, socialism, capitalism, fascism (monarchy, dictatorship)
no need for a debate about it.

On the left individual is high private profit low
On the right individual is low private profit high

Mercantilism, laissez faire, Chicago School, Friedman, neo-liberal ... no significant difference.

Proper policy should be determined by Keynesian metrics. Tax less at times, tax more at other times, depending.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Cat's Paw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:28 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:57 pm
If you continue trollish behavior and personal attacks you won't be posting on 4E for long.
OK, I submit to your authority.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:37 pm

Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:09 pm
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:15 am
Well, it doesn't help that we have a new batch of progressives who are trying to sell modern-day social democracies as "democratic socialism"
Be specific. What policy is Socialist?
As usual, your question is a complete non sequitur. I pointed out that these economies are not socialist at all and you ask me to point out specifically what polices are socialist. I have already said none.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:40 pm

Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:27 pm
On the left individual is high private profit low
On the right individual is low private profit high

Mercantilism, laissez faire, Chicago School, Friedman, neo-liberal ... no significant difference.
This is why conversations with you are impossible in any productive manner. You see the world in terms of your view, and everything else is not only the same but evil. Full stop. The end result is that you repeatedly misrepresent what others say, responded with canned lines in no sequiturs, and your arguments are completely disconnected from the conversation.

I'm not trying to pick on you, It's just despite my best efforts I don't seem to be able to find any value in engaging with you and your canned rhetoric. or your rapid-fire posting. You are already on the edge of turning this thread into the exact dumpster fire that I was trying to avoid.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Cat's Paw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:50 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:37 pm
I pointed out that these economies are not socialist
I don't understand.


...
left to right
Communism socialism capitalism fascism

Key difference is wealth distribution. Period.
If economics is a science, our goal should be to understand and gain the ability to control it.
It is under control (well-regulated) when all residents have access to physiologic and safety needs, and a sense of belonging.

If the goal is accomplished by giving power to a king, fine with me. If the goal can be accomplished by giving everyone the same apartment room, that's fine too. All other 'differences' are irrelevant, and minute.

Here's a question for you. What was Hitler's motivation? and what was Stalin's? What was the motivation behind Dread Scott? ... or our revolution?

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:53 pm

Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:50 pm
left to right
Communism socialism capitalism fascism
Again, we aren't talking about left to right. You are confused because you refuse to try and look at things from a different angle and are instead trying to reframe the conversation the way you think it should be. You are then confused because other people aren't falling in line with you.
Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:50 pm
Key difference is wealth distribution. Period.
I am well aware that you can't see things in any other way. I can't really help you with that. I'm sorry I would if I could.

To the rest, once again it's totally non sequitur.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by tck62 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:03 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:07 pm
Anyone who talked to me much in Disqus (and even some here) knows that I’m not a fan of the right vs left paradigm. It’s not just that it is an inaccurate way to describe political thought, though it is. It’s not just that it often means different things to different people causing confusion, it does. I think the biggest issue with the scale is that it lends itself to people thinking about politics in a binary fashion. You are either of the left or you are of the right, and every one of the other side is the same. It kills conversation.

I wanted to talk were we all stand on economic policy, but I wanted to do so without these issues. I’m going to propose a numeric scale as opposed to a right vs left scale. Any forum with Engineering in the name has to start scales at 0. So this scale goes from 0 to 5, with 0 being a true lasissez faire economy and 5 being a communism or an entirely state owned economy. Filling it the scale it would look something like this

0. Laissez faire
1. US Economics
2. Progressives/Crony Capitalism
3. Socialism/fascism
4. Communism

Let’s define a few of these tiers and why I put the examples I did here. (note. The names are just examples of economic systems that fit roughly in these categories. They are not meant to imply that they are the only school of fiscal thought that is at this level. For instance, Anarcho-captialisam would also be 0

0. Laissez Faire
This was the easiest one to classify. It is the belief that the market will take care of itself and that any intervention on the part of the government is detrimental. In a lasissez fair economy the consumer is the only balance against wrong doings of companies. In the truest sense this would include contract enforcement, although it unlikely many people truly believe this. There are many different names, and many different ideas for how to consumers should regulate companies, but the lack of government involvement is consistent in this case.

1. Libertarian
People often assume that libertarians are synonymous with Lasissez faire economics. This is true for some libertarians, but the broad sense libertarians believe that the government has a place in contract enforcement and managing externalizes. This may seem like a small distinction but when you start to think about what externalizes might include it is very different from the Laissez fare crowd. Other ideas might fall into this category if they allow for government involvement but severely limit it

2. The US economy, Republicans and Democrats
Both the DNC and GOP fall into this category. I can feel the seething objections now. The general conception is that the GOP wants less control over the economy and DNC wants less. One might argue the GOP is about 1.9 while the DNC a 2.1 but the differences are small when compared to the totality of economic thought. This is mostly because of our myopic focus on taxation in this country. While the parties differ in the kinds of regulations that should be used to control the economy, they actually agree in the level of government involvement. The GOP focuses on regulations to increase production while the DNC focuses on regulations to increase demand.

3. Progressives/Crony Capitalism
Modern progressivism is generally focused on income inequality. They believe the government should take an active role in regulating wealth distribution. They also believe that profit should be regulated to meet this goal.
Crony capitalists believe in giving clear market advantages to preferred companies. They think that by empowering the production the wealth will “trickle down” to others. While the US economy shows aspects of Crony Capitalism it differs in the level of direct control.

4. Socialism/Facisam
Theoretically, socialism puts the rights to produce into the hands of the people and there are some models of socialism that try to do this through various nongovernmental controls. I would argue that these methods would better fit somewhere around level 1 or 2. Here we are talking about socialism as it has been historically implemented. In which the government regulates most of the rights of production and either takes control of entire industries or only allows “friends of the party” to own companies.
Fascism needs know introduction and we can go down the dead end argument of whether it is of the right or the left, but no one can deny the level of control in a fascist and socialist model are very similar if not identical.

5 Communism
Communism is defined as the government ownership of the rights of production. Ultimately this means the government controls every aspect of the economy. Remove the concept of ownership and replacing it with the idea of use, puts the government firmly in the driver’s seat. Like a true Laissez Faire economy you are unlikely to find many people who truly believe this.

As I wrote this I was really disappointed. I was as honest as I could be here, and while normally I’d argue that Keynesian Economics are of the left, in this chart they would fall right around 2.5 or dead center. I’m sure this will tickle @John B Des Moines. I also wanted to tag him because there is not another person I’d rather have check my work on this. But if anyone disagrees with my classifications please speak up and let’s talk about it. This is only a first run through after all.

So, what now? First I thought it might be fun for us to all post below with where we fall on this scale along with some explanation. You don’t have to label yourself with a particular moment, but you certainly can if you wish. Remember it is okay to discuss the advantages or disadvantages of a given spot on the chart, it’s even acceptable to strongly defend your position, but demonizing others is not acceptable here.
Laissez Faire is completely undone by the corporate ownership structure of our corporations as it shields the assets of the owners from repercussion of a companies actions, now when you couple that with investment funds looking primarily at quarterly numbers it's a recipe for disaster.

In modern times it may be the very worst economic system.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:08 pm

tck62 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:03 pm
Laissez Faire is completely undone by the corporate ownership structure of our corporations as it shields the assets of the owners from repercussion of a companies actions, now when you couple that with investment funds looking primarily at quarterly numbers it's a recipe for disaster.

In modern times it may be the very worst economic system.
It's hard to say. It's never really existed on a large scale and hasn't existed at all in industrialized society.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Deleted User 54 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:20 pm

Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:50 pm
If economics is a science, our goal should be to understand and gain the ability to control it.
And this is where socialists, communists, fascists, Democratic Socialists, Crony Capitalists, or anyone else supporting controlled economies fail every single time. The economy can't be controlled and remain healthy. Healthy economies allow the individual freedom of association.

Here are some lyrics from a great rap song from Keynes vs Hayek: Rap Battle Round Two
The economy’s not a car. There’s no engine to stall. No experts can fix it. There’s no “it” at all. The economy is us. Put away your wrenches, the economy is organic.
Oversight? The government’s long been in bed with those Wall Street execs and the firms that they’ve bled. Capitalism is about profit and loss. You bail out the losers there is no end to the cost. The lesson I’ve learned is how little we know. The world is complex, not some circular flow. The economy is not a class you master in college, to think otherwise is the pretense of knowledge.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by tck62 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:21 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:08 pm
It's hard to say. It's never really existed on a large scale and hasn't existed at all in industrialized society.
Our problem isn't our choices of economic model, our problem is rampant political corruption and crony capitalism controlling our governmental decision from our City Councils to the White House. Nothing can get better until the little people on both sides joins together and shoves ethics reform down both team's leaders throats.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:22 pm

tck62 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:21 pm
ur problem is rampant political corruption and crony capitalism controlling our governmental decision
Probably true enough, but not the point of this conversation at all.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Deleted User 54 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:38 pm

tck62 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:21 pm
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:08 pm
It's hard to say. It's never really existed on a large scale and hasn't existed at all in industrialized society.
Our problem isn't our choices of economic model, our problem is rampant political corruption and crony capitalism controlling our governmental decision from our City Councils to the White House. Nothing can get better until the little people on both sides joins together and shoves ethics reform down both team's leaders throats.
I agree. Political power being bought and sold is the single biggest problem with the US. The solution isn't more government. The real solution would be to reduce the power of government and make those bribes worthless. The less power politicians can assert over the general population the less power cronys can purchase.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by tck62 » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:42 pm

Arphaxad wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:38 pm
tck62 wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:21 pm
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:08 pm
It's hard to say. It's never really existed on a large scale and hasn't existed at all in industrialized society.
Our problem isn't our choices of economic model, our problem is rampant political corruption and crony capitalism controlling our governmental decision from our City Councils to the White House. Nothing can get better until the little people on both sides joins together and shoves ethics reform down both team's leaders throats.
I agree. Political power being bought and sold is the single biggest problem with the US. The solution isn't more government. The real solution would be to reduce the power of government and make those bribes worthless. The less power politicians can assert over the general population the less power cronys can purchase.
All we do with that course of action is putting the people doing the bribing in charge and saving them the cost of the bribe. The solution is putting thousands of politicians and rich people in jail on bribery charges.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Procax Nothus » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:29 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:54 pm
When you say "human health" are you referring to national health care, health and safety standards or both?
Both, national health care and health & safety standards. But on the standards side there would be a focus on individual responsibility also. Meaning there would be environmental standards, water safety, pollution so on. But not bans on say, vaping.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Procax Nothus » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:30 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:11 pm
For instance I think the government has a role in human health and emergency services, I also recognize that there are time that subsidizing individuals is necessary for the health of a nation.
From your own post what do you exactly mean by "human health?"

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by Cat's Paw » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:37 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:53 pm
Again, we aren't talking about left to right. You are confused because you refuse to try and look at things from a different angle and are instead trying to reframe the conversation the way you think it should be. You are then confused because other people aren't falling in line with you.
I know.
Libertarians have their own axis. You live on the "Y" axis. It took me years to figure out. What do you call this "conventional" political axis? Up and down? ... or You would say, Liberal v. Authoritarian.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:38 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:30 pm
From your own post what do you exactly mean by "human health?"
I'm all for health and safety standards both in employment and public spaces. I'm not for public healthcare.

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Re: Charting our Economic Idealogies.

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:41 pm

Cat's Paw wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:37 pm
Libertarians have their own axis. You live on the "Y" axis. It took me years to figure out. What do you call this "conventional" political axis? Up and down? ... or You would say, Liberal v. Authoritarian.
I think that you are trying to reference either the Nolan or the compass charts. Which are certainly better then left vs right, but also not what we are talking about here. They are attempts to chart political ideologies and to separate economics from other aspects of politics. Here we are trying to take a loot at economics and classify them by a single property, government control.

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