KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

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KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:56 pm

Since a new gate was installed in my drive way last night and it will not open. (read “new gate” as giant chunk of tree) I had to take my wife’s car into work today. Her station is on a local radio show I normally don’t like very much, but I found the conversation today interesting.

They had received a letter from a listener who connected with a long lost half-brother he never knew he had. The man has no other living family and was really excited about this. The brother then let the man know that he was “A white Nationalist and member of the KKK”. The DJs had responded about as you would expect.

Another listener wrote in and berated the DJs for judging the man for his KKK affiliation. She then went on to compare the KKK to Black Lives Matter and other groups with cultural/racial missions. As someone who has been very critical of Black Lives Matters for both the inherent divisiveness of their name and the action of some people in the movement, even I found this comparison a bridge too far. We aren’t talking about a group that participates in Scottish games, or even a group that looks to interact with and elevate white people in poverty. We are talking about a group that has historically threatened, harassed and hung people based on nothing but their race or religious affiliation. This is not a fair comparison.

I guess that is where I draw the line. If you join a group that is responsible for such a long history of violent and hateful actions I simply cannot believe you are a decent person. Perhaps there is one man, raised in an Appalachian cave who only emerged this year to the naively join the Klan, but I will take my chances with this one. Perhaps this makes me hypocritical, but I’m okay with that in this case.

While there is a lot about BLM that I do not approve of, people join for a number of different reasons and chapters function entirely independently. It’s likely for members involved with one chapter to have no idea about what other chapters have done. This doesn’t excuse those situations in which people have been targeted or excluded based on race, but it does stand in stark contrast to the well-known and abundantly documented history of Klan violence and hate.
While sometimes any attempt to recognize the existence of a white race or culture is met with a disproportionate backlash and other races are met with cheers, this is not a good example of that. If we want to fight the divisiveness of the current social justice movement, we have to be careful not to accept foolishly excuse groups of true evil.



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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Eryk » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:11 pm

KKK is about white supremacy over the other races to the point of purifying America.

BLM is about drawing attention to police brutality and make people realize that blacks are treated like second class citizens. They are not a black supremacy group although it might seem that way if certain members act out in belligerent ways.

Im from Chicago so I’ve never met anyone or known of anyone who was overtly a white supremacist. Of course I’m brown so if a white supremacist is going to talk hate, they’d probably wait until I’m out of the room.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:19 pm

Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:11 pm
BLM is about drawing attention to police brutality and make people realize that blacks are treated like second class citizens.
One of the issues I take with BLM is the fact that they are only interested in police brutality when it is a white cope and a black victim. When an officer brutalizes a citizen I don't care if that officer did it based on race or narcissism the danger and the resolution are the same. Phrasing this important conversation in a racial perspective actually does a disservice to the severity of the problem.
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:11 pm
They are not a black supremacy group although it might seem that way if certain members act out in belligerent ways.
I think there are Black Supremacist within their groups, but they are so decentralized as a organization it's difficult to say much with any level of certainty.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Eryk » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:32 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:19 pm
One of the issues I take with BLM is the fact that they are only interested in police brutality when it is a white cope and a black victim.
Im pretty sure there have been cases with black cops as well.

And the focus is on blacks because of the idea that cops are inherently racist against blacks. You might not believe they are but I do think it’s logical for cops to be racist against blacks to some degree. Is it right? No but just because something is wrong or unjust doesn’t mean it’s not logical. I think BLM is right to focus on police brutality against blacks if they believe that cops are inherently racist against blacks.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:39 pm

Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:32 pm
Im pretty sure there have been cases with black cops as well.
There certainly have, but that isn't what BLM focuses on in their protests or press releases
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:32 pm
And the focus is on blacks because of the idea that cops are inherently racist against blacks.
Which is another problem with the movement. They assume racism first and demand proof to the contrary. While there are some officers who are absolutely racist, working with it a a base assumption is problematic.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:53 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:39 pm
Which is another problem with the movement. They assume racism first and demand proof to the contrary. While there are some officers who are absolutely racist, working with it a a base assumption is problematic.
The assumption of racism is based on historical/ongoing evidence. Historically, there have been very systematic racism preformed by the police, with no repercussions. The violent response to the civil rights movement was done by the police. Uniform officers from those times are in leadership positions now. Currently, this year, it is being reported about closed Facebook pages where police officers are using racist language, posting racist memes, so on and so on.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Eryk » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:55 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:39 pm
While there are some officers who are absolutely racist, working with it a a base assumption is problematic.
To the blacks who support BLM, racist police officers are whats problematic. They are the ones getting harassed and/or beaten up. To them the alleged racism is more real. Which is why white privilege is brought into the narrative.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:56 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:53 pm
The assumption of racism is based on historical/ongoing evidence. Historically, there have been very systematic racism preformed by the police, with no repercussions. The violent response to the civil rights movement was done by the police. Uniform officers from those times are in leadership positions now. Currently, this year, it is being reported about closed Facebook pages where police officers are using racist language, posting racist memes, so on and so on.
I'm not denying that there are racist police. It would be idiotic to deny that. The idea that all or even most officers are inherently racist is a problem. It's not any difference then dangerous stereotypes told about any other group. And all stereotypes have a historic/ongoing evidence. Does that mean we should accept them?

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:57 pm

Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:55 pm
To the blacks who support BLM, racist police officers are whats problematic.
Yes and that is myopiclly self important.
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:55 pm
They are the ones getting harassed and/or beaten up.
It happens to people of all racism so while some of them might be they are not the only ones.
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:55 pm
Which is why white privilege is brought into the narrative.
Depends on who is bringing it up and how. Sometimes white privilege means "shut up whitey"

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:57 pm

Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:55 pm
To the blacks who support BLM, racist police officers are whats problematic.
Yes and that is myopiclly self important.
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:55 pm
They are the ones getting harassed and/or beaten up.
It happens to people of all racism so while some of them might be they are not the only ones.
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:55 pm
Which is why white privilege is brought into the narrative.
Depends on who is bringing it up and how. Sometimes white privilege means "shut up whitey"

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Eryk » Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:52 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:57 pm
Yes and that is myopiclly self important.
Do you say this under the assumption that they are wrong? I’m not saying they are right/wrong Im just trying to have a little empathy here. Especially since it’s entirely within reason that police officers become conditioned by their job to become racist atleast on some subconscious level.

Reasoning: Blacks are 14% of population. Blacks commit 40% of violent crimes. Blacks median income is $40k compared to $60k for all races.

If blacks are targeted, then 40% of crime is a padded number. But padded by how much? Their income is a whole 1/3 less. So it HAS to be true that blacks commit a disproportionate high number of crimes. So if police spend a disproportionate amount of time arresting blacks, it makes sense that over time they become conditioned into targeting blacks to get their arrests up and do better at their jobs. It’s like fantasy sports. You pick certain players because the probably that they will have a good game is higher than the next player even though it’s not going to be true every week. If this is true then, to BLM, it represents a clear injustice in our law enforcement. If blacks commit 30% of crimes (fair guess) then they should have 30% of arrests. Even if that means that police make less arrests and are overall worse at doing their jobs. (If you judge their effectiveness by # of arrests)

Im not saying my reasoning is correct. I could be wrong. There might be 100s of factors that Im not considering. However based on my limited knowledge, my reasoning does fall within the realm of possibility I think.
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:57 pm

It happens to people of all racism so while some of them might be they are not the only ones.
This isn’t about all races. This is about blacks because the assumption is that this is happening to them much more than it’s happening to whites. If the problem of police brutality is a real one, then this problem will get compounded against blacks since blacks make up a disproportionate high amount of the arrests. Especially if the arrest numbers against blacks are padded by racism.
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:57 pm
Depends on who is bringing it up and how. Sometimes white privilege means "shut up whitey"
This isn’t how I brought it up. I brought it up as an explanation as to why whites don’t understand the issues surrounding the black community. Because whites don’t face the same problems as blacks.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:08 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:56 pm
It would be idiotic to deny that. The idea that all or even most officers are inherently racist is a problem.
As members of the general public it is nearly impossible to say if a majority or minority of police are racist or not. Anecdotal evidence from former police paint a picture of systematic discrimination and racist behavior towards black people.

Have to heard of Michael A. Wood? He is a former Baltimore police officer that came out against police brutality. He described a culture in which officers of all races used racist language against black people. How police practices and policies are geared towards over policing of black communities. Interesting anecdotal information that points to an overall culture not a specific belief within an individual officer.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:24 pm

Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:52 pm
Do you say this under the assumption that they are wrong?
I say this on the assumption that not all police officers who abuse their power, regardless of the races involved, do it becasue of race. Is that person any less abused because the officer had a different motivation? Is the damage any less severe?
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:52 pm
Especially since it’s entirely within reason that police officers become conditioned by their job to become racist atleast on some subconscious le
I'm saying when an officer abuses a citizen motivation shouldn't matter.
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:52 pm
If blacks are targeted, then 40% of crime is a padded number. But padded by how much? Their income is a whole 1/3 less.
This is a rather complex discussion. The biggest part of the issue has to do with poverty not race. This is evident by the fact that black people living in the suburbs are not arrested any more often then whites, and whites living in poor inner cities are arrested as often as blacks. The issue is that the poor inner cities are not only policies more, but tend to be policed by the least experienced officers. Not to mention the fact that poverty breeds an environment that pushes people into crime in the first place.

Finally, it's not just arrests. Blacks are disproportionately described in reported crimes both solved and unsolved. There isn't a measure that we have for criminal statistics where they don't rank higher. People often use this as proof that everyone is racist. The reality is, as I mention above, that black people are disproportionately poor.
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:52 pm
This isn’t about all races. This is about blacks
Thank you for perfectly stating the problem.
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:52 pm
If the problem of police brutality is a real one, then this problem will get compounded against blacks since blacks make up a disproportionate high amount of the arrests.
And do you think that further dividing people by race will help this if it is the case?
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:52 pm
This isn’t how I brought it up. I brought it up as an explanation as to why whites don’t understand the issues surrounding the black community. Because whites don’t face the same problems as blacks.
I never said you did. I simply pointed out that it isn't always brought up in a singular way.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:30 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:08 pm
As members of the general public it is nearly impossible to say if a majority or minority of police are racist or not. Anecdotal evidence from former police paint a picture of systematic discrimination and racist behavior towards black people.
Anecdotal evidence from specific departments. There are 750,000 police officers in this country. To condemn them all on anecdotal evidence is ridiculous.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Eryk » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:45 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:24 pm
People often use this as proof that everyone is racist.
Do people who do this assume that poverty levels have nothing to do with crime? I have no doubt that the more nutty SJW do. However I’m not doing this. Im saying that because blacks are more impoverished, they commit more crimes. And because they commit more crimes people, particularly police officers, are conditioned by their work environment to become racist. This doesn’t mean all police officers are racist or that they even know they’re racist. I’m merely pointing out a series of cause and effect.

Group 1 points out that blacks commit more crime. Group 2 points out that blacks are unfairly targeted for crimes. Maybe group #2 is right because group #1 is right.
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:24 pm

And do you think that further dividing people by race will help this if it is the case?
If it is true that police, through no fault of their own, are racist, don’t you think it’s important that we identify the problem? Regardless of how uncomfortable the problem is to you.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Eryk » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:55 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:08 pm
How police practices and policies are geared towards over policing of black communities.
Black communities are over policed because that’s where most of the violent crime takes place. Statistically speaking it’s a very effective way to address and prevent crime. However, it could be racist.

If we were talking solutions, I would suggest that every year a police officer goes through atleast 1 full day of racism sensitivity training. This will not solve the problem. If a police officer believes in his own mind that blacks are more dangerous than other races, well a police officer is going to want to look out for his own safety. Which means they would, by nature, lean toward being more hostile or defensive around blacks.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:56 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:30 pm
Anecdotal evidence from specific departments. There are 750,000 police officers in this country. To condemn them all on anecdotal evidence is ridiculous.
When and where did I condemn all police?

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:05 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:56 pm
When and where did I condemn all police?
When and where did I say you did?

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:09 pm

Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:55 pm
Black communities are over policed because that’s where most of the violent crime takes place. Statistically speaking it’s a very effective way to address and prevent crime. However, it could be racist.
This statement is false. I'm sure you are referencing the FBI stats for violent crime ARRESTS. But this data is incomplete at best. There is no database on any crimes only arrests for crimes.
Now think back to your own words
Eryk wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:52 pm
So if police spend a disproportionate amount of time arresting blacks, it makes sense that over time they become conditioned into targeting blacks to get their arrests up and do better at their jobs.


Police own records show that when stopping a vehicle it is more likely for a white person to have something illegal. But police search black people cars disproportionately more. Why? They are conditioned to go after black people more even when their own statistics show white people would be the better target.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:12 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:05 pm
When and where did I say you did?
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:30 pm
To condemn them all on anecdotal evidence is ridiculous.
I'm not sure how you interpret this statement, but I interpret it as you saying I am condemning all police on anecdotal evidence. Maybe that was not you intention but it clearly comes off that way to me.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:14 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:12 pm
I'm not sure how you interpret this statement, but I interpret it as you saying I am condemning all police on anecdotal evidence.
I didn't mean you. I was talking about some elements of Black Lives Matter who make general statements like, "Cops are racist". Sorry if that was unclear.

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Re: KKK and Judging People by Group Affiliation

Post by Eryk » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:16 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:09 pm
Police own records show that when stopping a vehicle it is more likely for a white person to have something illegal.
You are zeroing on a very narrow criteria. It’s like you are listing the exception and calling it the rule. My statistic, while perhaps flawed as all statistics are, is a more general criteria.

Moreover, you are suggesting that somehow police are acting against their best instincts. Which is illogical. I’m saying that perhaps police are acting in favor of their best instincts. Which is racist.

Let’s assume we are both relying on tainted statistics. Human nature would imply that I’m right.

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