Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

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GuideToACrazyWorld
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Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:43 pm

Innocent until proven guilty. It is the foundation of our legal system. For good reason. Any time an innocent man is in prison we are all less free. Most seem to accept this just fine. What about when we are talking about the court of public opinion? Taking away someone’s job? Driving them out of society? We seem to lose sight of this moral imperative in those situations, but not all the time.

We live in a culture that thrives on instant hot takes. We get a small snippet of information and we have to immediately take a position, but not just any position the morally correct position. Or at least the morally correct position to our tribe. In that way it’s no longer about truth as much as it’s about virtue signaling. We live in a world ruled by Nietzsche’s Post Modernism. Where our perception dictates the correct moral course of action. If anyone takes a position even slightly outside of that perspective, they are a threat to not only our sense of self but our sense of the world at large.

When we see an accusation in the media the facts are no secondary. What really matters is who is doing the accusing and who is being accused. People cling strongly to the idea of innocent until proven guilty when they feel the accused is part of their tribe, but run straight to presumed guilt when the accused is not .

That brings us today. We have two politicians who were accused of very similar crimes with very similar evidence. Most people have decided on is guilty and one is innocent. Not the same one of course, the one you chose has everything to do with your tribe, and who you want to win. Your guy has been accused of a crime with no evidence while the other is obviously guilty. Just look at what his kind does.

So what, goes the refrain, we are not a court of law! Yet people seem to forgot that the public has the ability to punished just the same. People are driven from their jobs, pushed to the out skirts of society, people get death threats, change their names, are thrown out or restaurants, all because they have been found guilty in the court of public opinion. If putting an innocent man in jail makes us all less free, this kind of vigilante behavior makes all of us less safe. We are all just one allegation, the right allegation, away from these losses. Moral indeed.

What scares me is that so many are okay with this result as long as they have issue with the person getting hurt. I guess this shouldn’t come as a shook. Society has always been this way. I was the foolish one to think we had made any strides to move past it.



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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:34 am

What scares me is that so many are okay with this result as long as they have issue with the person getting hurt. I guess this shouldn’t come as a shook. Society has always been this way. I was the foolish one to think we had made any strides to move past it.
Innocent until proven guilty and the like have their limits of application. They are for the court room only. Outside of the courtroom, they don't apply and never did.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by tck62 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:48 am

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:43 pm
What scares me is that so many are okay with this result as long as they have issue with the person getting hurt. I guess this shouldn’t come as a shook. Society has always been this way. I was the foolish one to think we had made any strides to move past it.
This dynamic has become infinitely worse in the internet age as a tribal member can seek out information that hardens their world view everyday and can avoid ever running across a story that conflicts with it.

From the outside looking in it is obvious Trump and Biden's extended family enterprises are full of shady shit.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 pm

former_rwd wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:34 am
Innocent until proven guilty and the like have their limits of application. They are for the court room only. Outside of the courtroom, they don't apply and never did.
Why do you feel it is moral to punish an innocent man as long as it isn't in the courts?

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:23 pm

tck62 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:48 am
This dynamic has become infinitely worse in the internet age as a tribal member can seek out information that hardens their world view everyday and can avoid ever running across a story that conflicts with it.
I'm not sure it's just the internet. If we look through history we seem to go through these tribal periods every 40 years or so.
tck62 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:48 am
From the outside looking in it is obvious Trump and Biden's extended family enterprises are full of shady shit.
That doesn't bother me, if you are treating both situations the same. Where I find it insanely frustrated is when people declare one guilty and one innocent with no real evidence.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:34 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:21 pm
Why do you feel it is moral to punish an innocent man as long as it isn't in the courts?
Who said anything about this being moral or just? It's just how it is. Just like it is deadly dangerous to be a stranger in quite a few communities across the globe. Not being familiar to the locals on its own was exposing oneself to a threat.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by tck62 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:35 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:23 pm
tck62 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:48 am
This dynamic has become infinitely worse in the internet age as a tribal member can seek out information that hardens their world view everyday and can avoid ever running across a story that conflicts with it.
I'm not sure it's just the internet. If we look through history we seem to go through these tribal periods every 40 years or so.
tck62 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:48 am
From the outside looking in it is obvious Trump and Biden's extended family enterprises are full of shady shit.
That doesn't bother me, if you are treating both situations the same. Where I find it insanely frustrated is when people declare one guilty and one innocent with no real evidence.
Agreed, guilt or innocence is determined by team membership. The my crook is better than your boy scout mentality has taken over.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Eryk » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:23 pm

I don’t advocate for people ever losing their jobs for expressing their freedom of speech. In this way we could be shooting ourselves in the foot if we ever, maybe by accident, say something that is unacceptable in the court of public opinion. Back in 2010ish I stopped posting things on social media that could be remotely damning. I purged my history as well. I only speak politics anonymously.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:25 pm

Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:23 pm
I don’t advocate for people ever losing their jobs for expressing their freedom of speech.
What about the employer's freedom of association? Isn't it just as important?
Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:23 pm
I only speak politics anonymously.
Amen to that.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Eryk » Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:43 am

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:25 pm
Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:23 pm
I don’t advocate for people ever losing their jobs for expressing their freedom of speech.
What about the employer's freedom of association? Isn't it just as important?
Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:23 pm
I only speak politics anonymously.
Amen to that.
Sure the employers can do that. Although I suspect the 9 times out of 10 that freedom of association is due to public pressure.

I don’t want to change the law. I just think this practice is disfortunate. Assuming the cost to me is minimal I like the idea of using my consumer dollars to punish companies who do this. But only in theory. Even though I like to talk politics to exercise the brain, in practice I’m rather apathetic.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by LivingRock » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:18 am

Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:23 pm
I don’t advocate for people ever losing their jobs for expressing their freedom of speech. In this way we could be shooting ourselves in the foot if we ever, maybe by accident, say something that is unacceptable in the court of public opinion. Back in 2010ish I stopped posting things on social media that could be remotely damning. I purged my history as well. I only speak politics anonymously.
As much as we as Americans rightfully champion free speech as a political idea, it’s generally a good idea in life to not say things in any situation (including online and social media, and with beers and friends) that you wouldn’t want repeated to everybody, like, ever. I know it sounds crotchety, and nobody is perfect, but life is kinda tragic like that as restraint is a thing. This especially holds true for public figures.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:43 am

Eryk wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:43 am
Sure the employers can do that. Although I suspect the 9 times out of 10 that freedom of association is due to public pressure.
It is the same thing. If I feel a company employs someone I find morally repugnant I don't want to patronize that business. If enough people agree, the business is going to protect their interests. This isn't a violation of liberty but a result of it.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:43 am

Eryk wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:23 pm
I don’t advocate for people ever losing their jobs for expressing their freedom of speech.
I can easily see how one's position can be endangered for being criminally stupid - and yes, opening one's mouth can sometimes be a sure way to establish one's stupidity.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:21 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:43 pm
If putting an innocent man in jail makes us all less free, this kind of vigilante behavior makes all of us less safe. We are all just one allegation, the right allegation, away from these losses. Moral indeed.
Morality is subjective. What is moral to one person is not moral to another. Human sense of morality changes depending on the situation. So to every one of these people they are making a moral choice. No matter what side of the divide they are standing on.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:46 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:21 pm
Morality is subjective. What is moral to one person is not moral to another.
I disagree or at least in part. I think there is both objective and subjective morality.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:54 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:46 pm
I think there is both objective and subjective morality.
Please provide an example of each. As I do not believe there are any objective morality.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:06 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:54 pm
Please provide an example of each. As I do not believe there are any objective morality.
I like the cannibalism example the best, becasue on it's surface it seems like an argument against objective morality, but when you take a closer look even cannibalistic tribes don't eat there own. The people they eat are first dehumanized in some way. This is evidence of the fact that they understand it is wrong to eat people, in order to function differently they consider some people, not people.

Subjective morality are most of the things we debate every day. Polygamy is a good example.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:24 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:54 pm
Please provide an example of each. As I do not believe there are any objective morality.
Sure is - whichever allows the current group of people (the one that accepts the morality in question) to prosper over the long-term time-frame.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:50 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:06 pm
I like the cannibalism example the best, becasue on it's surface it seems like an argument against objective morality, but when you take a closer look even cannibalistic tribes don't eat there own. The people they eat are first dehumanized in some way. This is evidence of the fact that they understand it is wrong to eat people, in order to function differently they consider some people, not people.
I would have to think about this and may be research a bit. Because on the surface it still seems subjective morality depending on the relationship between the people.

Saying dehumanizing the victim is evidence they understand what they are doing is wrong is a interpretation of their actions. The dehumanizing may just be a part of the ritual.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:52 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:50 pm
I would have to think about this and may be research a bit. Because on the surface it still seems subjective morality depending on the relationship between the people.
Ah, but that is my point. Objective morality are those things that are consistent across all tribes, and almost always pertain to how we treat the tribe. The fact that we have issues applying this to our entire human tribe is a failure of our morality, not evidence that it is subjective.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:52 pm

former_rwd wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:24 pm
Sure is - whichever allows the current group of people (the one that accepts the morality in question) to prosper over the long-term time-frame.
That is still subjective morality, as a outsider to that group of people, the things they call moral could be seen as repugnant.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:00 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:52 pm
Objective morality are those things that are consistent across all tribes, and almost always pertain to how we treat the tribe. The fact that we have issues applying this to our entire human tribe is a failure of our morality, not evidence that it is subjective.
Emphasis added for clarification.

How is this not a contradiction? How can something be consistent across ALL tribes but not across the entire human tribe?

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:04 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:00 pm
How is this not a contradiction? How can something be consistent across ALL tribes but not across the entire human tribe?
Because we have a tendency to view those outside our own tribe as less then human. Often we don't even know we are doing it.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:12 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:04 pm
Because we have a tendency to view those outside our own tribe as less then human.
Hence making our morality subjective.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:15 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:12 pm
Hence making our morality subjective.
How is it subjective if it is always true whiten the tribe?

Perhaps we have a semantics issue here. To me subjective means that something is a matter of opinion. This seems more like morality is often applied situational. To me that is more "inconsistent" then "subjective". I

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