Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

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Procax Nothus
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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:33 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:15 pm
How is it subjective if it is always true whiten the tribe?
Because nothing is always true within a tribe. There are always outliers. Jeffery Dahmer lived in a "tribe" where cannibalism was wrong but he still engaged in the practice.
GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:15 pm
To me subjective means that something is a matter of opinion. This seems more like morality is often applied situational.
I agree with that interpretation of subjective. So what a person or society views as moral is a matter of opinion within that society or person. Objective morality, to me, would be something that is viewed as moral across all people and all societies and that is impossible.



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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:37 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:52 pm
That is still subjective morality, as a outsider to that group of people, the things they call moral could be seen as repugnant.
Why? The prosperity over long-term is measurable and objective. Whether or not someone considers the morals themselves repugnant is merely a matter of personal opinion.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:43 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:33 pm
Jeffery Dahmer lived in a "tribe" where cannibalism was wrong but he still engaged in the practice.
Jeffery Dahmer knew what he was doing was wrong and chose to do it anyway.
'I knew I was sick or evil or both. Now, I believe I was sick. -Jeffery Dahmer
Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:33 pm
Objective morality, to me, would be something that is viewed as moral across all people and all societies and that is impossible.
Then we agree. For instance all people in all societies agree you should not eat members of your own tribe.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:44 pm

former_rwd wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:37 pm
Why? The prosperity over long-term is measurable and objective.
Because prosperity is not considered a factor in morality. Just because something works over a long-term does not make it moral.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:50 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:43 pm
Jeffery Dahmer knew what he was doing was wrong and chose to do it anyway.
Then his morals allowed him to engage in cannibalism. Morals by definition is
2. a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do.
If it was not acceptable to him, then he would not have done it.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:52 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:50 pm
If it was not acceptable to him, then he would not have done it.
His statement makes it clear that it was not acceptable to him. Yet he did it anyway. This is the difference between legally insane and just plain ol' crazy.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:53 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:43 pm
Then we agree. For instance all people in all societies agree you should not eat members of your own tribe.
If this was true we would never hear stories about people engaging in cannibalism. But let a plane crash on a mountain and most people are like "yeah, I would eat you to survive."

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:56 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:53 pm
If this was true we would never hear stories about people engaging in cannibalism.
People do things they know are wrong all the time. For all kinds of different reasons.
Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:53 pm
But let a plane crash on a mountain and most people are like "yeah, I would eat you to survive."
Yes, and when normal people engage in such behavior the result is a lifetime of guilt and PTSD.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:56 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:52 pm
His statement makes it clear that it was not acceptable to him. Yet he did it anyway.
His statement does not make that clear. That is the statement of a man that has been caught and is facing legal action for his crimes. He is trying to get leniency from the courts. His actions when he was engaging in the acts show he had no issue with eating people.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:57 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:44 pm
Because prosperity is not considered a factor in morality. Just because something works over a long-term does not make it moral.
While not a factor, it's a pretty good indicator of morality. To reuse the example from the parallel discussion you have with GuideToACrazyWorld - eating the members of one's own tribe would quickly contribute to the society not lasting for too long. Eating one's foes, on the other hand, might help with reputation of being ferocious - not a bad trait to have in the ancient times.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:58 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:56 pm
His actions when he was engaging in the acts show he had no issue with eating people.
Have you never in your life done something you knew was wrong and felt guilty for it?

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:00 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:58 pm
Have you never in your life done something you knew was wrong and felt guilty for it?
Not something that was against my morals.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:01 pm

former_rwd wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:57 pm
While not a factor, it's a pretty good indicator of morality. To reuse the example from the parallel discussion you have with GuideToACrazyWorld - eating the members of one's own tribe would quickly contribute to the society not lasting for too long. Eating one's foes, on the other hand, might help with reputation of being ferocious - not a bad trait to have in the ancient times.
The example is true but doesn't make cannibalism moral.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:02 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:00 pm
Not something that was against my morals.
Not even as a teen or young adult? Not even in the heat of the moment with out thinking about it?

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:05 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:02 pm
Not even as a teen or young adult? Not even in the heat of the moment with out thinking about it?
That will take some thought. But I didn't really have many morals when I was a teen/young adult.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:06 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:02 pm
Not even as a teen or young adult? Not even in the heat of the moment with out thinking about it?
Do you regularly or ever go against your own morals?

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:07 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:05 pm
That will take some thought. But I didn't really have many morals when I was a teen/young adult.
BTW I'm not saying you are lying, but if that is the case it would be well outside of the normal human experience. I find that fascinating.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:13 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:07 pm
BTW I'm not saying you are lying, but if that is the case it would be well outside of the normal human experience. I find that fascinating.
My morals are pretty simple so its not that hard.

Don't kill other people. No cannibalism, stuff like that.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:40 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:01 pm
The example is true but doesn't make cannibalism moral.
I am very tempted to ask you to prove it. I wonder just how this would mesh with your "all morals are subjective" approach.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:52 pm

former_rwd wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:40 pm
I am very tempted to ask you to prove it. I wonder just how this would mesh with your "all morals are subjective" approach.
To prove cannibalism is not moral? I think that is the consensus among most people and societies.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:58 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:52 pm
To prove cannibalism is not moral? I think that is the consensus among most people and societies.
Do you prefer to define morality by popular vote? Because a certain European society - Germany of 1930's - comes to mind.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:08 pm

former_rwd wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:58 pm
Do you prefer to define morality by popular vote? Because a certain European society - Germany of 1930's - comes to mind.
To me, that is what you are describing when you say
former_rwd wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:24 pm
whichever allows the current group of people (the one that accepts the morality in question) to prosper over the long-term time-frame.
Sure Germany of 1930 didn't last long-term. But we have societies that lasted hundreds of years with slavery. Which most societies regard as immoral today.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:23 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:08 pm
To me, that is what you are describing when you say
Rather unclear how my description can lead to this conclusion. Please elaborate.
Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:08 pm
Sure Germany of 1930 didn't last long-term. But we have societies that lasted hundreds of years with slavery. Which most societies regard as immoral today.
Sure - because socioeconomic environment has developed to the extend that slavery is no longer adequate for the society.

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by Procax Nothus » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:30 pm

former_rwd wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:23 pm
Rather unclear how my description can lead to this conclusion. Please elaborate.
I'm not sure we are having the same conversation. Are we discussing Objective Morality? If so, Please provide what you believe is the definition of objective morality. I provided mine in response to Guide. "Objective morality, to me, would be something that is viewed as moral across all people and all societies and that is impossible."

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Re: Tribalism and the Morality of Guilt

Post by former_rwd » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:20 pm

Procax Nothus wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:30 pm
I'm not sure we are having the same conversation. Are we discussing Objective Morality? If so, Please provide what you believe is the definition of objective morality. I provided mine in response to Guide. "Objective morality, to me, would be something that is viewed as moral across all people and all societies and that is impossible."
Sorry, didn't see your definition there. And yes, such a morality is indeed impossible.

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