Turning The Tables on the Tuesday Political Open Thread

[Z is for Zangie]

Good Morning! Have a terrific Tuesday!

[Slip Shod]

" Death is the solution to all problems - no man, no problem "
⬇ his words
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Yeah, I love you too

[Z is for Zangie]

" Death is the solution to all problems - no man, no problem "
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c3fc3915a9b69d9ed9ba8dc426fa056c.jpg
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Yeah, I love you too

[Slip Shod]

Joseph Stalin, communist, the boss. Estimates vary between 50 to 68 million deaths - Siberia, manufactured famines, death camps, secret police, assassinations, torture.
And now communist totalitarian China today - not much has changed 85 or so years. Forced sterilizations, police state, AI facial recognition / cameras everywhere, torture, corrupt courts / imprisonment, slave labor, persecuted minorities. The new face of global communism.. really ?? Looks like the same old, same old. Yet, there are those who take every opportunity to malign Western democracy, wrap themselves in the red flag of hammer and sickle and regurgitate a false picture of the Communist Utopia

[Z is for Zangie]

Joseph Stalin, communist, the boss. Estimates vary between 50 to 68 million deaths - Siberia, manufactured famines, death camps, secret police, assassinations, torture.
And now communist totalitarian China today - not much has changed 85 or so years. Forced sterilizations, police state, AI facial recognition / cameras everywhere, torture, corrupt courts / imprisonment, slave labor, persecuted minorities. The new face of global communism.. really ?? Looks like the same old, same old. Yet, there are those who take every opportunity to malign Western democracy, wrap themselves in the red flag of hammer and sickle and regurgitate a false picture of the Communist Utopia

I am sure there are and always shave been, but, I have never met a single person who is actually a communist...they have a communist party, but it is very small and has no power...stop listening to the extremes on both sides...problem solved

[Mike]

Actually, I’m gonna agree with shoddy a bit on this…. for a moment. Stalin, Mao, PolPot did horrendous things during their times in power. And totalitarianism is once again growing in both Russia and China, and needs to be watched.

That said, totalitarianism and dictatorship and human horrors are by no means limited to communists - despite the insistence of some uninformed folks that this is so. The people who perpetrate those horrors are ideologues, and ideologues of all stripes have done this. Likewise, many of these horrors have emerged as a result of mere greed, the same greed that capitalists insist is a force for good. Chattel slavery was the market in its most exposed form. If greed is good and ownership a god-given right and low wages are acceptable, then more greed is better and ownership of slaves a god-given right and zero wages also acceptable.

Nope, it is not ‘socialism’ that is the problem. There is a balance between capitalism and socialism and other isms, and that balance changes over time. The issue is true belief in ideology…. any ideology.

[Slip Shod]

@Mike - . Actually I was thinking of getting a t-shirt saying " Shoddy & Proud of It "

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

That said, totalitarianism and dictatorship and human horrors are by no means limited to communists

You are 100% correct. It is worth noting that there is no ideology that comes anywhere close to the death total of communists. Before you go jumping to conclusions this doesn't mean that communism as a concept is inherently evil. The problem is that in order to maintain a communist society you have to grant absolute power. Even if you find a perfect benevolent dictator, there is no way to ensure that the ones who come next will be benevolent.

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

@Mike - . Actually I was thinking of getting a t-shirt saying " Shoddy & Proud of It "

I'm a Shoddy Hottie.

[Mike]

That said, totalitarianism and dictatorship and human horrors are by no means limited to communists

You are 100% correct. It is worth noting that there is no ideology that comes anywhere close to the death total of communists. Before you go jumping to conclusions this doesn't mean that communism as a concept is inherently evil. The problem is that in order to maintain a communist society you have to grant absolute power. Even if you find a perfect benevolent dictator, there is no way to ensure that the ones who come next will be benevolent.

Despite the insistence of some around here, I have never once argued in favor of totalitarian communism. And the reality is that the supremacist European colonial era, in service of crony capitalism and Christian orthodoxy, was far more horrific in total effect than was the communist era. Its death total exceeds the communist death total by a factor of 20 or more. We are still living with the effects of that era today (BLM).

That correction aside, the PolPot moment is fascinating. I spent time in Cambodia. Amazing place. The history of it is as follows:
1. The French colonial period, followed by the US invasion, is what set the stage and then triggered events. (Noteworthy: the effects of our presence there are still felt in terms of birth defects from Agent Orange, unexploded ordnance that to this day will occasionally detonate at the touch of curious children, etc. Yes, we waged chemical and terror war on that population.)
2. A self-styled intellectual elite in Cambodia believed the future of the nation to be capitalist technology powerhouse. To replace the rice paddies that stretch as far as the eye can see, and fill the land and build factories and produce cars and computers and whatnot.

If you’ve been there, you grasp how flawed that concept is. Most of the nation is a giant flood plain that remains permanently wet. It has little natural fuel, aside from the swamp peat that constantly burns and perfumes the air there. To attempt to dry it out, in order to erect modern factories, would be folly. Especially in a world where people continue to starve, and rice is needed.

PolPot grasped this. In his analysis of the overall scenario, he was correct.

Where he failed of course was in deciding that mass murder was the solution. The nation was already in bad shape from having been a French colony, and then from having been wrecked by American military power. The last thing it needed was for its older generation to be wiped from the face of the earth. But that’s what happened.

[Slip Shod]

A break from this heavy communism thing.. and on the lighter side - The New Normal : food and fuel shortages, rolling blackouts, higher crime, perhaps a hundred thousand servicemen will refuse the mandated jab as well as doctors and nurse shortages, same reason. But thanks Mr. President Biden for our new normal and a weakened America. And thank you for all those who say yes I would vote for him again
For those who say Aw, it's not that bad, I say just wait a bit, we're on the precipice. It's The New Normal

[Slip Shod]

All this politics has gotten my blood pressure up and I'm dried mouth. I apologize and please forgive if I've intruded upon anyone's political sensitivities. I'm going to give it a rest now and get me a breakfast Budweiser

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

Despite the insistence of some around here, I have never once argued in favor of totalitarian communism.

I know. Just a couple weeks ago I pointed out that you are not a communist. I wasn't attacking you, I was simply responding to your point.

And I want to be clear, communism can not exist without totalitarianism.

And the reality is that the supremacist European colonial era, in service of crony capitalism and Christian orthodoxy, was far more horrific in total effect than was the communist era. Its death total exceeds the communist death total by a factor of 20 or more.

Can you provide any evidence to back this claim? The fact that you say "factor of 20 or more" tells me you are working from memory and not hard numbers. As far as I can tell the communist body count is just under 150,000,000 people. The only way I can get close to this with colonialism is if you include death from diseases. This gets a bit tricky. While intentional infection has always been used as a weapon it's almost impossible to separate those numbers from those who caught a disease under more normal circumstances.

[Slip Shod]

@Mike
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[Mike]

Your “weakened America” was already well along before Biden. Food and fuel shortages? So 2020. Same with rolling blackouts. Let’s look at Uber-libertarian Republican Texas to see the future of that; none of what transpired there had anything to do with Biden, yet that state, rich in oil, is incapable of hand.Jong either a cold winter or a hot summer.

The “mandated jab”? Seems no one remembers when draftees into WWII and Korea and Vietnam lined up for their mandated shots. The shots that protected them against malaria, against a whole host of microbial threats. It was considered patriotic duty. How the hell did “American patriotism” morph into the selfish shithole that it has become today?

[Slip Shod]

I used the word precipice and I will stand by it because 'you ain't seen nothing yet, baby' - the s*** is about to hit the fan. No, it's not a prophecy .. it's a ton of bricks coming down on our heads & I will be here to say I told you so
In fairness to mr. Biden and his administration there is nothing that can be done now by either party. The debt, water crisis out west, incompetency in Congress for years on end, and a divided nation.. it's all a house of cards, smoke and mirrors

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

@Mike
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I can't take Rand seriously. Anyone who claims that there is no morality in charity is suspect in my book.

[Slip Shod]

@Mike
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742512032-planetRand-copy.jpg

I can't take Rand seriously. Anyone who claims that there is no morality in charity is suspect in my book.

She's lived under both systems graduated from a Soviet University and I would believe she knows what she's talking about concerning politics in comparison east / west. To throw the baby out with the bathwater and simply dismiss her insights because she may have dropped the ball in another area - well, I guess you're free to do so. But I believe she has some valid points and says them well. Appreciate you

[Z is for Zangie]

@Mike
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742512032-planetRand-copy.jpg

Ayn Rand...sheesh....though I should have suspected you had at least some small L libertarianism...lol
( it was a terrible book, I read it, it made no sense and she was both a hypocrite and a not very nice person..)

[Slip Shod]

@Mike
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742512032-planetRand-copy.jpg

Ayn Rand...sheesh....though I should have suspected you had at least some small L libertarianism...lol
( it was a terrible book, I read it, it made no sense and she was both a hypocrite and a not very nice person..)

Ms.Z - I'm merely posted a quote - and it seems it created a stir - Got some juices flowing.
So what now ? I could grovel and repent saying it will never happen again. Name it Ms. Z. - some sort of penitence ?
Ms. Z .. how about a spanking ✔

[Z is for Zangie]

@Mike
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742512032-planetRand-copy.jpg

Ayn Rand...sheesh....though I should have suspected you had at least some small L libertarianism...lol
( it was a terrible book, I read it, it made no sense and she was both a hypocrite and a not very nice person..)

Ms.Z - I'm merely posted a quote - and it seems it created a stir - Got some juices flowing.
So what now ? I could grovel and repent saying it will never happen again. Name it Ms. Z. - some sort of penitence ?
Ms. Z .. how about a spanking ✔

ha ha ha..
Nothing wrong with you posting it...I just have a strong contrary opinion on it...and her, and I even have a Libertarian streak...

[Tarmaque]

Ayn Rand is a terrible writer, and her political and economic positions are unsupportable. She was just an angry privileged woman who was pissed that the communists booted her wealthy family out and took their stuff. I can't blame her for that, but I can blame her for formulating an unsustainable and hateful philosophical manifesto that nevertheless appealed the the emotions of a certain mindset in the west because of that. Quoting Rand automatically makes your arguments suspect, even if you're quoting her to make a point about the viability of her economic and political opinions. She was a bad person, that nevertheless attracted a lot of attention by other selfish and bad people.

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

She's lived under both systems graduated from a Soviet University and I would believe she knows what she's talking about concerning politics in comparison east / west. To throw the baby out with the bathwater and simply dismiss her insights because she may have dropped the ball in another area - well, I guess you're free to do so. But I believe she has some valid points and says them well. Appreciate you

She did live under both systems, but that doesn't make her an expert on the evolution of those systems. In addition to her insistence that charity was not a moral act, she also focused extensively on the "welfare-state" as a precursor to communism. Interestingly enough her view point is a very US concentric way of looking at politics. It also ignores reality of our system It is always evolving. I'm not necessarily a fan of a heavy welfare-state, but it simply wrong to associate it with communism in that way. Communism is about the governments level of economic control over enterprise. It's not about giving people stuff. The fact that it's commonly missuses in the US creates this exact issue. The association with any welfare with genocide. It's simply not true.

[Tarmaque]

I'm not necessarily a fan of a heavy welfare-state, but it simply wrong to associate it with communism in that way.

The latter part of that statement is fully correct. There are a number of designed-into-the-system "Welfare States" that are not only very strong economically but have more stable economies than the United States. In these "Welfare States" the government doesn't own industry or business like what happens in Communism, but instead regulates them strongly and taxes them more fairly. There are plenty of Swedish and German billionaires, so it's completely possible to get rich in a welfare state. The difference is every person in the population has a greater chance to achieve success. When everyone has equal access to free or subsidized education, for instance, getting that fancy "Harvard" union card your Daddy bought for you isn't an automatic pass to the fast lane of wealth and prosperity.

What I find interesting is the evolution of China. In spite of the country being heavily controlled by the Communist Party, China does not really look much like a Communist country anymore. While the government does in fact still own a lot of industry, a lot of industry is also owned by private institutions and even individuals. Communism in China today is a far cry from Maoism. Mostly it is a power structure and totalitarian government. It's happy to allow private industry as long as that industry doesn't threaten the power structure.

That said, I see an economic collapse in China's future. Not a complete one, but a substantial one. The economy in China has been too hot for too long, which combined with their single child policy is a recipe for disaster. Yes, they've rescinded that policy, but the generation that was born under the single child policy is reaching retirement age and the entire Chinese population is contracting and aging. At some point I think this will reach equilibrium, but before that happens I suspect there will not be enough workers to support all the industry they have built up. I think this is a recipe for a disaster that will have worldwide repercussions. I think the US is resilient enough to weather that storm because we have the industrial base to cover the essentials, but I think it's going to hurt. Not as much as it will hurt China, but nonetheless painful.

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

The latter part of that statement is fully correct. There are a number of designed-into-the-system "Welfare States" that are not only very strong economically but have more stable economies than the United States.

In a lot of ways the Nordic countries have freer economies then the us. The barriers to entrepreneurship are much lower and regulations are much more consistently applied making them easier to navigate. There are things about this system that I don't think will work well in the US, but we have got to stop calling every policy we don't like "Communism". It's a conversation killer.

What I find interesting is the evolution of China. In spite of the country being heavily controlled by the Communist Party, China does not really look much like a Communist country anymore. While the government does in fact still own a lot of industry, a lot of industry is also owned by private institutions and even individuals.

While that is somewhat true, the right to open those businesses is only granted to those who the Communist part looks favorably on. So while modern China doesn't directly run the companies they have a much firmer control over those who do. This is communism slight adjusted, but internally China is still very much communist in my opinion. One might argue that they are borrowing from a more socialistic approach.

In the world market they act like straight up robber barrens.