(Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Come discus news articles of the day with a bit of an NPR focus.

Moderators: AA Admin, AA Mod

Post Reply
User avatar
GuideToACrazyWorld
Posts: 8390
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 pm
Location: California
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

(Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:50 am

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/14/11633635 ... ican-split
Republican party leaders are split on whether the United States should continue to back Ukraine with billions of dollars of military equipment and aid, a rift that seems likely to become a major issue in the 2024 presidential election.

The latest sign of the GOP divide on Russia's war in Ukraine comes from Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, who is seen as one of the top contenders in the Republican race to become the party's nominee.

DeSantis joined former President Donald Trump — another leading GOP contender — in opposing U.S. support for Ukraine. They outlined their positions in a survey of potential 2024 Republican candidates done by Fox News host Tucker Carlson.

"While the U.S. has many vital national interests — securing our borders, addressing the crisis of readiness within our military, achieving energy security and independence, and checking the economic, cultural, and military power of the Chinese Communist Party — becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them," DeSantis said.

President Biden and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy walk in front of St. Michaels cathedral in Kyiv on Feb. 20. during a surprise visit ahead of the anniversary of Russia's war in Ukraine.
Dimitar Dilkoff/AFP via Getty Images
Biden has vowed support for 'as long as it takes'


But with little sign of an end to the conflict, polls show a growing number of Americans feel the United States is giving Ukraine too much.

DeSantis tapped into some of those concerns, telling Carlson that Biden has given Ukraine "virtual 'blank check' funding of the conflict for 'as long as it takes'" without defining objectives.

Trump also said opposing Russia is not in the U.S.'s strategic interest. "Our objective in Ukraine is to help and secure Europe, but Europe isn't helping itself," Trump wrote. "They are relying on the United States to largely do it for them. That is very unfair to us."

Former President Donald Trump speaks to guests gathered for an event at the Adler Theatre on March 13 in Davenport, Iowa.
Scott Olson/Getty Images
Other Republicans say Biden should provide more support to Ukraine

Other potential Republican candidates are on the opposite side of the rift.

Former Vice President Mike Pence said last month that the United States should increase its support.

"Make no mistake: This is not America's war. But if we falter in our commitment to providing the support to the people of Ukraine to defend their freedom, our sons and daughters may soon be called upon to defend ours," Pence said in a speech in Austin, Texas.

Former United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley said the U.S. needs to help Ukraine prevent Russia from taking over. "If Russia wins, there is no reason to believe it will stop at Ukraine. And if Russia wins, then its closest allies, China and Iran, will become more aggressive," she said.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., speaks during a news conference at the U.S. Capitol on March 7.
Drew Angerer/Getty Images
McConnell has tried to downplay the GOP split

Pence and Haley are more aligned with the views of Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell who has downplayed the split in his party.
Sponsor Message

"Reports about the death of Republican support for strong American leadership in the world have been greatly exaggerated," McConnell told European defense leaders last month in Munich. "My party's leaders overwhelmingly support a strong, involved America and a robust transatlantic alliance. Don't look at Twitter, look at people in power."
In 2022, Ukraine was a rallying cry in the State of the Union. In 2023, not so much
Politics
In 2022, Ukraine was a rallying cry in the State of the Union. In 2023, not so much

Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy has supported Ukraine, but more recently has warned that there "can't be a blank check" for Ukraine aid when the United States faces so much debt of its own.

Republican Sen. Marco Rubio, a senior member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who is also from Florida, was critical of DeSantis' comments. He told conservative radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt that DeSantis "doesn't deal with foreign policy every day as governor."

But among Republican supporters of Ukraine, there are also growing questions about the Biden administration's end game.

At a Capitol Hill hearing last month, Rep. Chris Stewart, R-Utah, pushed top Biden officials to explain the U.S. objectives in the war.

"When the president says we will support them for as long as it takes, my question is: as long as it takes to do what?" Stewart said. "We've got to define this. What does it mean to see this through? What does it mean to say we will be here until the end?"

It's easier to tell U.S. voters that the money should be spent at home

Biden administration officials are not expected to ask Congress for more funding for Ukraine this fiscal year, which ends Sept. 30.

But future requests for funding could be complicated by the growing debate among Republicans over the war, especially as the 2024 race heats up.

Republican strategist Ryan Williams said making the case to American voters why fighting Russia is in U.S. interests is complicated. It's hard to explain the geopolitical impacts, and the importance of pushing back against dictators.

Williams said it's much easier to tell war-weary Americans that the U.S. is sending too much money overseas, especially when there are plenty of problems at home.

"It resonates," Williams said. "And I think that's why you're seeing more and more Republicans adopt that message, or at least tap the brakes on support for Ukraine, given where the base is heading."



User avatar
GuideToACrazyWorld
Posts: 8390
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 pm
Location: California
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:53 am

At first I was just excited to hear Desanttis weighing in on an actual political issue instead of trying to fight the mouse. Then I his stance sunk in...

I'm writing int Cthullu. This site is the only good thing to come out of Lovecraft's catalog going public domain.

https://www.cthulhuforamerica.com/

User avatar
Knightrider1976
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:05 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by Knightrider1976 » Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:19 am

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:50 am
https://www.npr.org/2023/03/14/11633635 ... ican-split
Republican party leaders are split on whether the United States should continue to back Ukraine with billions of dollars of military equipment and aid, a rift that seems likely to become a major issue in the 2024 presidential election.

The latest sign of the GOP divide on Russia's war in Ukraine comes from Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, who is seen as one of the top contenders in the Republican race to become the party's nominee.


DeSantis joined former President Donald Trump — another leading GOP contender — in opposing U.S. support for Ukraine. They outlined their positions in a survey of potential 2024 Republican candidates done by Fox News host Tucker Carlson.

"While the U.S. has many vital national interests — securing our borders, addressing the crisis
of readiness within our military, achieving energy security and independence, and checking the economic, cultural, and military power of the Chinese Communist Party — becoming further entangled in a territorial dispute between Ukraine and Russia is not one of them," DeSantis said.

President Biden and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy walk in front of St. Michaels cathedral in Kyiv on Feb. 20. during a surprise visit ahead of the anniversary of Russia's war in Ukraine.
Dimitar Dilkoff/AFP via Getty Images
Biden has vowed support for 'as long as it takes'


But with little sign of an end to the conflict, polls show a growing number of Americans feel the United States is giving Ukraine too much.

DeSantis tapped into some of those concerns, telling Carlson that Biden has given Ukraine "virtual 'blank check' funding of the conflict for 'as long as it takes'" without defining objectives.

Trump also said opposing Russia is not in the U.S.'s strategic interest. "Our objective in Ukraine is to help and secure Europe, but Europe isn't helping itself," Trump wrote. "They are relying on the United States to largely do it for them. That is very unfair to us."

Former President Donald Trump speaks to guests gathered for an event at the Adler Theatre on March 13 in Davenport, Iowa.
Scott Olson/Getty Images
Other Republicans say Biden should provide more support to Ukraine

Other potential Republican candidates are on the opposite side of the rift.

Former Vice President Mike Pence said last month that the United States should increase its support.

"Make no mistake: This is not America's war. But if we falter in our commitment to providing the support to the people of Ukraine to defend their freedom, our sons and daughters may soon be called upon to defend ours," Pence said in a speech in Austin, Texas.

Former United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley said the U.S. needs to help Ukraine prevent Russia from taking over. "If Russia wins, there is no reason to believe it will stop at Ukraine. And if Russia wins, then its closest allies, China and Iran, will become more aggressive," she said.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., speaks during a news conference at the U.S. Capitol on March 7.
Drew Angerer/Getty Images
McConnell has tried to downplay the GOP split

Pence and Haley are more aligned with the views of Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell who has downplayed the split in his party.
Sponsor Message

"Reports about the death of Republican support for strong American leadership in the world have been greatly exaggerated," McConnell told European defense leaders last month in Munich. "My party's leaders overwhelmingly support a strong, involved America and a robust transatlantic alliance. Don't look at Twitter, look at people in power."
In 2022, Ukraine was a rallying cry in the State of the Union. In 2023, not so much
Politics
In 2022, Ukraine was a rallying cry in the State of the Union. In 2023, not so much

Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy has supported Ukraine, but more recently has warned that there "can't be a blank check" for Ukraine aid when the United States faces so much debt of its own.

Republican Sen. Marco Rubio, a senior member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee who is also from Florida, was critical of DeSantis' comments. He told conservative radio talk show host Hugh Hewitt that DeSantis "doesn't deal with foreign policy every day as governor."

But among Republican supporters of Ukraine, there are also growing questions about the Biden administration's end game.

At a Capitol Hill hearing last month, Rep. Chris Stewart, R-Utah, pushed top Biden officials to explain the U.S. objectives in the war.

"When the president says we will support them for as long as it takes, my question is: as long as it takes to do what?" Stewart said. "We've got to define this. What does it mean to see this through? What does it mean to say we will be here until the end?"

It's easier to tell U.S. voters that the money should be spent at home

Biden administration officials are not expected to ask Congress for more funding for Ukraine this fiscal year, which ends Sept. 30.

But future requests for funding could be complicated by the growing debate among Republicans over the war, especially as the 2024 race heats up.

Republican strategist Ryan Williams said making the case to American voters why fighting Russia is in U.S. interests is complicated. It's hard to explain the geopolitical impacts, and the importance of pushing back against dictators.

Williams said it's much easier to tell war-weary Americans that the U.S. is sending too much money overseas, especially when there are plenty of problems at home.

"It resonates," Williams said. "And I think that's why you're seeing more and more Republicans adopt that message, or at least tap the brakes on support for Ukraine, given where the base is heading."
Governor DeSantis has his own problems here in florida

User avatar
GuideToACrazyWorld
Posts: 8390
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 pm
Location: California
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:16 am

Knightrider1976 wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:19 am
Governor DeSantis has his own problems here in florida
What are you referring to?

From my standpoint he seems more interested in fighting culture wars the governing. I can't get behind him in any real way myself. Then again there isn't any candidate I've seen mentioned that I'd vote for today.

User avatar
Tarmaque
Posts: 6611
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am
Location: Vancouver, USA
Has thanked: 1265 times
Been thanked: 2743 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by Tarmaque » Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:22 am

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:16 am
From my standpoint he seems more interested in fighting culture wars the governing.
That, and being more Trumpy than Golfcart von Spraytan.

User avatar
Tarmaque
Posts: 6611
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am
Location: Vancouver, USA
Has thanked: 1265 times
Been thanked: 2743 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by Tarmaque » Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:42 am

Realistically, campaigning on reducing aid to Ukraine is a double edged sword that I find likely to bounce back to bite any candidate who embraces it. I think a strong majority of Americans are still in favor of continued aid to Ukraine, at least for the next year or more. True "Reagan Republicans" should in theory be all for this aid to someone fighting successfully against Russia, without having to involve US troops. The fact that it's just been found out that Russia is resurrecting mothballed tanks and other field equipment from 50-60 years ago while the Ukrainians are about to get access to modern Challenger and Leopard II tanks says a lot about how this war is going. I think Ukraine is going to get their F-16s eventually too, although I personally think that is less of a big deal than the tanks. Russia still, after a full year of combat, doesn't have control of the airspace. At all. A couple of wings of F-16s might complete Ukraine's control of its own airspace, but I would suggest that to continue to shoot down Russian aircraft with cheap (relatively) shoulder fired Stinger missiles is more valuable. This depletes Russian resources for far cheaper than to supply aircraft.

That said, the F-16s could play a roll in intercepting and knocking down Russian drones and cruise missiles.

But in the end this is little more than pandering to the whole "I don't approve of the way the government is spending the money they took from me" constituency, as well as an attempt to distract from the failing banks caused by their own deregulation.

It's hard to campaign against paying another country to "stick it to the Ruskies" to a generation of Republicans who never grumbled about Reagan borrow-and-spend policies in the 80's.

User avatar
GuideToACrazyWorld
Posts: 8390
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 pm
Location: California
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:50 am

Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:42 am
Realistically, campaigning on reducing aid to Ukraine is a double edged sword that I find likely to bounce back to bite any candidate who embraces it
Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:42 am
But in the end this is little more than pandering to the whole "I don't approve of the way the government is spending the money they took from me" constituency, as well as an attempt to distract from the failing banks caused by their own deregulation.
It's a strategy that really only appeals to two extremes. The peacnick hippy and they anti-war Libertarian. Which also means it appeals to Pen Gillette twice...
Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:42 am
But in the end this is little more than pandering to the whole "I don't approve of the way the government is spending the money they took from me" constituency, as well as an attempt to distract from the failing banks caused by their own deregulation.
I'm still waiting for NPR to pick up that story. Maybe they just aren't reporting it in the politics section so I'm missing it.

But I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. How can we blame any governed of Florida for the failure of a California headquartered bank? Not that I'm blaming Ca either. Frankly, it's primary a bunch of silicon valley VCs that got toasted on this one. I'm having a hard time finding tears anyway.

User avatar
Knightrider1976
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 5:05 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by Knightrider1976 » Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:35 am

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:16 am
Knightrider1976 wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 2:19 am
Governor DeSantis has his own problems here in florida
What are you referring to?

From my standpoint he seems more interested in fighting culture wars the governing. I can't get behind him in any real way myself. Then again there isn't any candidate I've seen mentioned that I'd vote for today.

quite a few things

1.he is going after state attorneys in florida and he doesn’t realize there are elected officials. Not appointed by him

2. He wants to lower age limited to buy guns in florida without getting a gun permit

3. He got rid of the reedy creek improvement district and he doesn’t realize it might hurt the taxpayers in Orange County fl and Osceola County Florida

User avatar
Z is for Zangie
Posts: 10402
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:47 pm
Location: OH
Has thanked: 4301 times
Been thanked: 1514 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by Z is for Zangie » Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:44 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:50 am
Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:42 am
Realistically, campaigning on reducing aid to Ukraine is a double edged sword that I find likely to bounce back to bite any candidate who embraces it
Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:42 am
But in the end this is little more than pandering to the whole "I don't approve of the way the government is spending the money they took from me" constituency, as well as an attempt to distract from the failing banks caused by their own deregulation.
It's a strategy that really only appeals to two extremes. The peacnick hippy and they anti-war Libertarian. Which also means it appeals to Pen Gillette twice...
Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:42 am
But in the end this is little more than pandering to the whole "I don't approve of the way the government is spending the money they took from me" constituency, as well as an attempt to distract from the failing banks caused by their own deregulation.
I'm still waiting for NPR to pick up that story. Maybe they just aren't reporting it in the politics section so I'm missing it.

But I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. How can we blame any governed of Florida for the failure of a California headquartered bank? Not that I'm blaming Ca either. Frankly, it's primary a bunch of silicon valley VCs that got toasted on this one. I'm having a hard time finding tears anyway.
Excellent Penn Gillette reference, I giggled

User avatar
Tarmaque
Posts: 6611
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am
Location: Vancouver, USA
Has thanked: 1265 times
Been thanked: 2743 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by Tarmaque » Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:07 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 4:50 am
But I'm not sure I'm following your logic here. How can we blame any governed of Florida for the failure of a California headquartered bank?
It's nothing to do with where it's headquartered, but the fact that DeSatan is running for President (clearly if not officially) and it's a national issue which reflects badly on his party.

User avatar
GuideToACrazyWorld
Posts: 8390
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 pm
Location: California
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:55 pm

Z is for Zangie wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 12:44 pm
Excellent Penn Gillette reference, I giggled
I was worried the joke might be too obscure. I'm glad it landed.

User avatar
GuideToACrazyWorld
Posts: 8390
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 pm
Location: California
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:56 pm

Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:07 pm
It's nothing to do with where it's headquartered, but the fact that DeSatan is running for President (clearly if not officially) and it's a national issue which reflects badly on his party.
More of a general GOP reference. Got it. I will say if congress sticks with Biden's position, this is when deregulation works. Let the reckless fail.

User avatar
Tarmaque
Posts: 6611
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:41 am
Location: Vancouver, USA
Has thanked: 1265 times
Been thanked: 2743 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by Tarmaque » Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:58 pm

GuideToACrazyWorld wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:56 pm
Let the reckless fail.
I would tend to agree. However, there are many innocent depositors who deserve some protection. Not investors, but people and companies who use the bank as a business service. The managers who fucked up the bank should be financially responsible for their actions. Additionally, no executive should be paid in nor allowed to own company stock. Or maybe they should be prohibited from selling any such compensation for five years after their period of employment. Something like that.

User avatar
GuideToACrazyWorld
Posts: 8390
Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:31 pm
Location: California
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 2316 times

Re: (Wednesday PO) Ron DeSantis says backing Ukraine is not in the U.S. interest, a sign of a GOP divided

Post by GuideToACrazyWorld » Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:00 pm

Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:58 pm
Not investors, but people and companies who use the bank as a business service
They are FDIC insured. They aren't the one's who are going to take a huge cut on this one.
Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:58 pm
The managers who fucked up the bank should be financially responsible for their actions.
There is some pretty good evidence of crimes here. I'm pretty sure they will be held criminally responsible. They might not have the money to be financially responsible.
Tarmaque wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:58 pm
Or maybe they should be prohibited from selling any such compensation for five years after their period of employment. Something like that.
I'm not sure how to address that problem. Stock options are an import way that start-ups attract top talent. In the tech world, this has led to some of the best products that have hit the market. The reward when HP or IBM buys the company gets spread to those early employees. This makes a lot of sense. However, running a company into the ground and selling your stock right before the market finds out, is insider trade. There is nothing else to call it.

As I think about it. If these employ stock options were bought as part of an IPO it would potentially solve things. But that would still cut the employees out of the big payday when HP, IBM, or Microsoft comes calling.

Post Reply