(Monday PO) Florida rejects some social studies textbooks and pushes publishers to change others

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

https://www.npr.org/2023/05/10/11752327 ... es-schools

Florida education officials have rejected dozens of social studies textbooks amid an ongoing effort by the administration of Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis to influence what's taught in the state's public schools.

The Florida Department of Education announced Tuesday that it had approved 66 of 101 submissions for new social studies textbooks — some of which only got through after publishers made revisions requested by the state.

At first, only 19 books were approved "due to inaccurate material, errors and other information that was not aligned with Florida Law," the department said.

Several of those changes, which were disclosed on the department's website, had to do with political and social justice issues.

In one case, references to the killing of George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement were removed. In another, a question mentioning "social justice issues" in the Hebrew Bible was changed to refer to "key principles" in the religious text. Descriptions of socialism and communism were also changed.

The list of rejected materials included books on U.S. history, the Holocaust, psychology and more. Officials said the books did not meet state standards, but it's unclear specifically why they were not approved.


Florida Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, a Democrat, criticized the announcement. "DeSantis and extreme MAGA Republicans are bent on dumbing down America's education system and silencing Black voices," she said in a tweet.

This is not the first time the administration of DeSantis, who in the past slammed what he calls "woke indoctrination" in schools, has intervened on matters of curriculum in K-12 education.
Florida rejects 54 math books, claiming critical race theory appeared in some
Education
Florida rejects 54 math books, claiming critical race theory appeared in some

Last year state education officials rejected 54 mathematics textbooks, saying some of them included topics such as critical race theory or otherwise didn't meet state standards.

Earlier this year, DeSantis rejected a new Advanced Placement African American Studies course, with a spokesperson saying the class had a "political agenda." The final curriculum of the course was changed from a previous version, but the College Board said that was not because of Florida's objections. The College Board said in April that it will make further changes to the course in coming months after listening to the "diversity of voices within the field."

In a statement Tuesday, Florida Education Commissioner Manny Diaz Jr. thanked DeSantis for his focus on education.

"To uphold our exceptional standards, we must ensure our students and teachers have the highest quality materials available – materials that focus on historical facts and are free from inaccuracies or ideological rhetoric," Diaz said.
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The department said publishers could appeal any rejections and that the approved textbooks can now be purchased by public school districts across the state.

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

This is pretty funny to me. Every year states reject or accept materials for their schools, and every year states work with publishers to make changes. The only reason this is new is because DeSantis has made it news, with his obsession with culture wars.

[Z is for Zangie]

This is pretty funny to me. Every year states reject or accept materials for their schools, and every year states work with publishers to make changes. The only reason this is new is because DeSantis has made it news, with his obsession with culture wars.

I would suggest, from my point of view, what he is removing is the issue, not that he is removing or asking for changes, it is well-known that Texas has controlled school textbooks for years because of their sheer size ...and they left out anything negative about the south etc...it may not bother you, but, it does bother me. I had teachers that told us what the real truth was, not with any bias, just the facts, and even one in college who debunked myths we had been taught in HS. Personally I think a non partisan panel of experts should decide what goes in, not politicians, especially biased ones.

[Tarmaque]

This is what happens when Politics collides with education. Even worse, when religion-influenced politics collides with education. In this case, the religion of the conservative movement. This isn't an argument about tax policy or anything like that, but an argument about teaching facts that make a certain segment of the population look bad.

Just wait. The next thing they'll want to erase from history is the fact that no weapons of mass destruction were found in Iraq, and that Reagan imposed the biggest tax increase in history (after his tax cuts failed miserably.)

[Slip Shod]

DeSantis is in Florida and these issues he's addressing are Florida issues. Are any of you living in Florida ?
I would suggest becoming involved in issues in your own States whether Ohio California or Washington whatever . Become involved in school boards there and in issues there I would think. Aside of that, this here is an exercise in flailing of the arms and kicking up dust. Not that you can't, that's okay too - have at it, for the time being it's still a free country for the most part

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

...and they left out anything negative about the south etc...it may not bother you,

This wasn't true in the textbooks I read growing up. The difference could be where we went to school, but it also can be when. Keep in mind, I haven't been in school in over 20 years. For either of us to claim that our experiences is indicutive of the average education today is pretty silly.

Personally I think a non partisan panel of experts should decide what goes in, not politicians, especially biased ones.

This sounds good, but the problem is there is no such thing as an unbiased opinion. We are all biased.

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

Even worse, when religion-influenced politics collides with education.

Is Desantis particularly religious? I've never heard or read him talking about it.

This isn't an argument about tax policy or anything like that, but an argument about teaching facts that make a certain segment of the population look bad.

Did you click through and read the edits? It wasn't about making anyone look bad. Everything that was removed was about either promoting Socialism, communism or social justice principles. In fact, I'd argue everything that was removed was pretty blatantly biased language. The only complaint I would have is that it's obvious in at least one case they left in the argument against socialism, and completely removed to the argument for. They could have left the pro argument and softened the Laurange of the writing.

I keep seeing this with the older generation and the textbook argument. It's exactly what I'm seeing here from you and @Z is for Zangie. Clear into the early 80's textbooks intentionally glazed over slavery and the civil war. But that started to change 40 years ago. Text books today are not the same as the ones you used, and this fight in Florida isn't the same as the one in the 70s and 80s.

That's not to say I agree with DeSantis or his approach. At the same time, I do find some of what was removed dishonest both prior to and after the edits. I think that should be a much broader concern. We have an education system, regardless of where you live, that is more interested in producing votes for a particular party then teaching children to think critically. It's dangerous all the way around.

[Z is for Zangie]

...and they left out anything negative about the south etc...it may not bother you,

This wasn't true in the textbooks I read growing up. The difference could be where we went to school, but it also can be when. Keep in mind, I haven't been in school in over 20 years. For either of us to claim that our experiences is indicutive of the average education today is pretty silly.

Personally I think a non partisan panel of experts should decide what goes in, not politicians, especially biased ones.

This sounds good, but the problem is there is no such thing as an unbiased opinion. We are all biased.

Yes, we are, but there are people who can know that about themselves and keep politics out of it...I think it all should be talked about, both or however man sides, period. I wouldn't presume to remove things I didn't like from school books.

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

Yes, we are, but there are people who can know that about themselves and keep politics out of it..

I'm not so sure that it true. I think people can try and some can do better than others. I think the best that we can do if have a mix of biased people on panels reviewing controversial issues. When no one is 100% satisfied that is a good indication that we have a reasonable balance.

I'd encourage you to take a look at Florida's website and what was actually removed. For instance, there was a suggestion that parents talk to their children about why some people kneel for the national anthem to protest racism. This seems like an unreasonable edit to me. There is another section that describes socialism as

It keeps things nice and even and without unnecessary waste.

While that might be the goal of socialism it has never been achieved. That seems to be a very biased statement that should be removed.

Another one changes

What soicial justice issues are included in the Hebrew Bible?

to

What are some key principles included in the Hebrew Bible

I think it's pretty obvious which is a more biased question.

It's easy to demonize one side or the other, but the reality is there is a fight in our education system over how our children should be indoctrinated not if.

[Slip Shod]

Vladimir Lenin Quotes
Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.

[Tarmaque]

Is Desantis particularly religious? I've never heard or read him talking about it.

I was referring to the conservative movement, which is as much a cult as any other religion. DeSantis is all-in on that nonsense.

[Z is for Zangie]

Is Desantis particularly religious? I've never heard or read him talking about it.

I was referring to the conservative movement, which is as much a cult as any other religion. DeSantis is all-in on that nonsense.

DeSantis is a devout Catholic @GuideToACrazyWorld At least he and his wife say they are, they go to church regularly apparently.

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

I was referring to the conservative movement, which is as much a cult as any other religion. DeSantis is all-in on that nonsense.

I'm not sure DeSantis cares about half the stuff he spews. Sometimes I think he's playing for votes. I could be wrong there. I haven't heard anything from him that resembles an original thought. Then again, maybe that is just who he is and he's not playing politics. It's hard to tell any more. We live in the upside down.

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

DeSantis is a devout Catholic @GuideToACrazyWorld At least he and his wife say they are, they go to church regularly apparently.

Thank you. I wonder what that means in terms of his politics. He's never seemed particularly religious to me in a way some are, but that doesn't mean he isn't Catholicism is a funny faith to me. It's always hard to determine what hold it has on someone's life, it seems to be all over the place. Then again that might just be because there are so many people involved, and people are all different.

[Slip Shod]

According to the good book..
The love of money is the root of all evil / apparently that's not so ..
To hear it referred to in these parts, conservatives are the root of all evil. That's just an observation on my part, it may not be true - only it's the gist of things, the recycling of the liberal Left tape, rewound & played over and over again

[Z is for Zangie]

According to the good book..
The love of money is the root of all evil / apparently that's not so ..
To hear it referred to in these parts, conservatives are the root of all evil. That's just an observation on my part, it may not be true - only it's the gist of things, the recycling of the liberal Left tape, rewound & played over and over again

I has nothing to do with right or left slip..human behavior is human behavior, right now as far as I am concerned the right has more to complain about for sure, they are not the way they used to be...I make a distinction between far right Republicans and normal conservatives, which as getting smaller and smaller...for years they bashed us and are still doing so, we are responding now is all, instead of ignoring it etc.

I can't begin to tell you all the things I have been called and even you think I am evil...it is BS

[Slip Shod]

Z. : "can't begin to tell you all the things I have been called and even you think I am evil...it is BS"
•
That's the craziest idea ever heard you say, so you get that out of your head right now about me.
I don't believe you're evil, and actually I don't think you really believe I do - you got some things on your plate right now a bit disconcerting. I'm thinking good things and accounts past due will straighten up for you
Where'd you get that crazy idea that I think 'you evil'. We can agree to disagree, we can be on opposite sides of the fence, we can be blue State /Red State ..Yankee/ rebel , left-handed/right-handed because I believe in the sincerity that is in you

[Tarmaque]

Catholicism is a funny faith to me.

It can be argued that Catholicism isn't really Christian at all. It was founded by Paul (Saul) who never met Jesus, but used what he learned from the other disciples to promote his own ideas because the other disciples already had a following. All the worship of Mary and the iconography (different from Eastern Orthodox iconography) and the idea of saints and so forth is the kind of thing Jesus himself was arguing against. Jesus was the original Protestant, who was protesting against the abuses of the Jewish rabbinical community and what he considered the faults with the Torah. Paul turned that on its head and founded the highly corrupt Catholic church.

Not that Eastern Orthodox is any better, but it is closer to the church as it was practiced by Jesus's actual disciples.

That said, some of what The Bible reports Jesus as having said is remarkably similar to parables and teachings going around Buddhism at the time. There is a theory that as a younger man (We know little of Jesus's life between the ages of about 14 and 35) he traveled to the Indian sub continent and was exposed to Buddhism and Hindu teachings. What I find more likely is that some of his followers did so and some of those ideas creeped into the Gospels. We know that the Gospels kinda borrow and influence one another, and that a lot of it is influenced by the writings of Paul and an unknown sixth document. Not to mention a lot of editing and purging over the millennia. Or all the contemporary books and documents that the leaders of Christianity have decided not to canonize for whatever reason.

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

It can be argued that Catholicism isn't really Christian at all. It was founded by Paul (Saul) who never met Jesus, but used what he learned from the other disciples to promote his own ideas because the other disciples already had a following. All the worship of Mary and the iconography (different from Eastern Orthodox iconography) and the idea of saints and so forth is the kind of thing Jesus himself was arguing against. Jesus was the original Protestant, who was protesting against the abuses of the Jewish rabbinical community and what he considered the faults with the Torah. Paul turned that on its head and founded the highly corrupt Catholic church.

I don't think we've ever talked religion. I actually have strong doubts that Paul was a profit. I've yet to find a contradiction in the bible that can't be tracked to 1 of two sources. The first is a misunderstanding of text often do to having a quote out of context. The second is the work Paul. He directly contradicts the reported words of Chirste more then once. The biggest contradiction being the role of faith vs deeds in salvation. Which is a major difference in a number of ways. Hint, most Christians who perform the most horrendous deeds think their faith will save them from the consequences.

That said, some of what The Bible reports Jesus as having said is remarkably similar to parables and teachings going around Buddhism at the time.

My boss is Hindu, I've quizzed him a lot and discovered that both of them have parallels in Hinduism. What I find the most interesting is that Hindustan teaches there will be multiple incarnations of Krishna and the Buddha is recognized as one.

Also, ever time this is brought up I think of a really interesting movie I watched once. I think it was called The Man From Earth. A university professor is retiring and he calls together a group of his colleagues for a thought experiment. He proposes that he is a prehistoric man who someone has lived all the way into the present. Obviously the movie leaves the question of thought experiment vs reality open ended. One of the things he proposes is that he was Jesus, and that all he was trying to do was bring the teachings of Buddha to the middle east. That stuck with me more then anything else, although the movie is worth a watch over all.

I have my own belief. I really think all the the worlds major religious are trying to teach us the same thing. It's just they use stories that make sense in the time and pace they were created. I describe it this way. If I am standing on the north side of a mountain and you the south, we could both draw maps to the top and they would look nothing alike. Yet they would lead to the same place, it's all about perspective. So I try to dive into the historical context around religious teachings and this often clears up things that seem confusing.

Not to mention a lot of editing and purging over the millennia. Or all the contemporary books and documents that the leaders of Christianity have decided not to canonize for whatever reason.

And out right selective canonization (is that even a word? I think it is). The some of the stated goals of the council included things like eliminating writings that gave power to the individual especially woman. What was thrown out because it was genuinely fringe and what was thrown out to keep people docile? It's impossible to tell.

[Slip Shod]

Discussing religion ..

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[Tarmaque]

And out right selective canonization (is that even a word? I think it is). The some of the stated goals of the council included things like eliminating writings that gave power to the individual especially woman. What was thrown out because it was genuinely fringe and what was thrown out to keep people docile? It's impossible to tell.

The Catholic church preserved a lot of the apocrypha, but didn't include it in "The Bible." It was fine according to them for the priesthood to have access to some of the more controversial apocrypha, but lay people wouldn't be able to "understand it." In fact the Catholic leadership was extremely worried when lay people started learning to read and translations of the Bible started appearing among them. In their view it was the job of the clergy to "interpret" the Bible for the members of the church, not for them to read it for themselves. That's one reason Catholic services are often in Latin today. As a "believer" you aren't supposed to think for yourself, but be told what to think by the church.

And maybe they were right, in a twisted kind of way. Look at all the harm being done by Protestant Evangelicals who use contradictions in the Bible to excuse all sorts of behavior. I dunno. I think I'm happier being a person who thinks for themselves instead of using an ancient book to tell me I can do what I want to do.

[Slip Shod]

Frank Sinatra had a song out, it was a crossover big hit at the time. The name of it was "I did it My Way"
Captain of his own destiny, sufficient in himself or another way of putting it god of the world he's made himself. I think that's kind of narcissistic - there can't be much joy in that

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

And maybe they were right, in a twisted kind of way. Look at all the harm being done by Protestant Evangelicals who use contradictions in the Bible to excuse all sorts of behavior. I dunno. I think I'm happier being a person who thinks for themselves instead of using an ancient book to tell me I can do what I want to do.

I think for my self, but I also so the value in wisdom of religious texts. Churches on the other hand, I just can't...

[GuideToACrazyWorld]

Frank Sinatra had a song out, it was a crossover big hit at the time. The name of it was "I did it My Way"

I thought the song was just called "My Way" Have I been wrong all this time?

[Slip Shod]

Frank Sinatra had a song out, it was a crossover big hit at the time. The name of it was "I did it My Way"

I thought the song was just called "My Way" Have I been wrong all this time?

I think you got it right, Guide.
Score : guide one, slip zero